Q’s for non vaxxers
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Topic: Q’s for non vaxxers
Posted By: Plushie
Subject: Q’s for non vaxxers
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 12:17pm
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NOT trying to start a debate.
DS has had his 6 week jabs and i've since wondered if i've been a bit of a sheep about vaxx's - mostly because he's had such a rough time after it which could be co-incidence but enough to make me think. I would like to know any websites, literature etc where i can research the pros/cons of continuing the schedule or perhaps a revised schedule. |
Replies:
Posted By: mumtooboys
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 2:44pm
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I started looking at vaccines by going to the library and seeing what books on vaccines they had. As a sample I read Just a Little Prick (and From One Prick To Another) by Peter and Hilary Butler, the Immunisation handbook from the MoH, The truth about vaccines : how we are used as guinea pigs without knowing it by Richard Halvorsen, Investigate Before you Vaccinate by Susan K Claridge, the Complete Idiot's Guide to Vaccination, and Vaccines: what you should know by Paul Offitt. There aren't any 'middle of the road' books so you have to read 'pro' books and 'against' books.
The Butlers also have a couple of websites: http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/ - Beyond Conformity and http://beyondvaccination.com/ - Beyond Vaccination http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/ - Inside Vaccines is an interesting read, though apparently they have more an 'anti' vax stance...but oddly are often quoted by 'pro' vaxers. 
Then there's medical journals, books on the history of disease in general, and immunology. Depends on how in depth you want to go with it. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: newme
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 2:48pm
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I do vax my kids. However I did a lot of research into it.
Just be careful about the literature you read - a LOT of it is very very biased one way or the other. |
Posted By: Plushie
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 3:11pm
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Yeah i figured it would go either way! Just interested in reading up on it as i've sort of just done what i was told for the first round would like to have a proper think before i continue.
Thanks for the reading list mumtooboys, i will look them up :) |
Posted By: kellie
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 3:14pm
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You can order the books by Peter and Hilary here:
http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/books - Link They are actually free-Hilary and Peter just ask for a small donation if you find them useful :) ------------- 
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Posted By: High9
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 3:40pm
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You can also choose which vaccines you want to do - rather than doing them all - some parents don't know that - I certainly didn't! ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: Hopes
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 3:46pm
Ditto to this  I applaud you for doing the research, though, good on you  -------------   
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hila1 wrote:Posted By: mumtooboys
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 3:57pm
Well sort of. LOL If it is a single vaccine like Prevenar or in DS2's case MeNZB, you can decline to have it. If it is a combination vaccine though, it's a bit trickier. For example we've said that we wouldn't necessarily mind if DS2 had mumps vaccine if he hasn't had them by a certain age, but you can't get mumps vaccine on its own, so it's MMR or nothing. 
I have heard that some GPs have access to single vaccines that there are combos for, but that's not widely known, and I haven't been able to get any specific names. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: kiwigal
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 5:33pm
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DS was totally vaxed as it was the right thing to do and didn't do any research I wish we did as I might have done things a little different. He was vaxed right up until he was 15 months, then after that he wasdiagnosed with autism that we kind of decided he wouldn't be getting his 4 year jabs as we had enough to deal with. DD came along when DS was 5.5 and we were stuck between a rock and a hard place and decided to do it when we were ready. There was a measles breakout and was kind of pressured from the hubby to get her vaxed she had her first one at 5 months then the second at 11 months. After her second vax she became completely quiet and wasn't saying much like she did before the vax then started coming right about 2 or 3 weeks later. She is 2.7 years and haven't decided if she will be receiving anymore. Do what your guts tells you as there is no right or wrong way of parenting.
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Posted By: Plushie
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 7:31pm
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I probably wouldnt be looking into it if the nurse who did the 6 week ones wasnt so freaking rude about it - when i tried to ask questions she basically told me to be quiet because they (medical professionals) know best and when i asked what exactly was in the jabs told me it was listed in my plunket book, i could look later. I felt a bit...forced into it so will be more prepared for the next round! He may very well continue to get the full recommended schedule but at least i'll know i made a researched thought out decision instead of being steamrollered by a nurse with a pointy stick!
Kellie thats brilliant thank you so much - my library had a useless selection. |
Posted By: Hopes
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 7:48pm
 Oh, but that's dreadful! And aren't they meant to give you that little sheet with all the stuff they're doing for you to sign, and then go through it with you / answer any questions you've got?? -------------
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Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 7:53pm
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Mumtooboys has given you loads but will just add.
Inside vaccines have a website and a facebook page. The other site that is quite good is http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/ which is run by doctors (is anti vaccine though). They are both from the US though so you have to remember that their schedule is a lot more intense than ours so not all the stats etc match up. www.immune.org.nz is our government site and you can enter the health provider part of the site as well as the parent part, theres a lot of useful info on their, including a rebuttal to the just a little prick book, which I found a very interesting read. It is unfortunately about reading both sides and then coming to a conclusion on it, shame their aren't any unbiased resources. You have the right as a parent to ask the medical professionals as many questions as you like about any treatment before your child recieves it. I expect that nurse actually has no idea what is in the vaccines and just doles them out and that's why she was so rude. If something like that happens next time either ask to speak to the doctor or to see the package insert of the vaccine or other medicine. Oh and actually that is another really good resource, you can look up what vaccines are on our schedule (the specific manufacturers name as different companies make versions of MMR etc, MOH has this info on their site) and then google for the pdfs of the package inserts they are easy to find the companies just let you download them. Good luck and you are making a fantastic choice by deciding to get informed, an informed decision is the best decision whatever you choose to do. ------------- 
 
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Posted By: Hopes
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 8:02pm
Yea, that's one thing about this parenting thing that I wish there was more of. Genuine as-unbiased-as-possible easy-to-read books comparing the pros and cons of things like vaxing. I guess it makes sense that everyone has a point of view and will come from that angle, but surely it's possible to write them? (Maybe when I've had a few more kids and know what I'm talking about I'll give it a shot  )-------------
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Posted By: myonlineself
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 8:06pm
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Wow - I'm definitely a pro-vaccine person (educated and informed), but you totally have the right to ask as many questions as you need/want to when you or your children are receiving any medical treatment. That is appalling treatment you received from that nurse, and if you are up for it, I think it would definitely be worth laying a formal complaint. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: High9
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 8:46pm
Yeah, that's what I'd heard! I actually went to a discussion group/focus group on Immunisations a couple of weeks ago as they're thinking of launching a new campaign but wanted to know if we did or not, why/why not and showed us what they had come up with. It was very pro vaccinate though. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: High9
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 8:50pm
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It's 'funny' because we have a right to be fully informed and make informed choices etc yet this just doesn't happen imo with vaccinating! It sucks.
DD is due to get her 15mo ones in about a months time and I'm really on the fence about what to do. In my family and DPs family it is the normal/'right' thing to do so I get a lot of pressure there. Although I could just 'pretend' to have it done. I am sure he doesn't even know she's due for them! With the 6 week ones I was on the fence but family urged me it was the right thing and same with docs, nurses etc. So we did them. And same with the 3 and 5 month ones. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 9:28pm
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Read up, ask questions, and follow your gut instinct. There are pros and cons to both decisions and you need to be at peace with your decision. We haven't vaccinated either of our babies, but our choice is an informed one and respected by both our GP and our Plunket nurse. I always try to keep up with current info as well as checking in with myself to make sure I still feel ok about our decision. Good luck, you've got some great reading/links there to start with! -------------   http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Pipee
Date Posted: 10 April 2011 at 9:25am
I was incredibly pro-vaccine when I had my first 2 children. However after various health probs with both of them - multiple chemical sensitivities, multiple food allergy, eczema and reflux, I decided that if I wanted to heal them and help prevent any future children maybe having the same issues I needed to look at everything that could be contributing. I am a health professional, this meant that I could read a lot of medical papers and understand them critically. What I cam to realise that in every clinical trial (and which there were alarmingly few quality ones) MY children were in the excluded bunch due to their specific problems. This has caused a bit of an about-face by me. But all I can stress is that you should be fully informed, I do not press my views on anybody else although I am asked a lot about it by various people. What I know and believe is right for my children applies to MINE only, other people can be informed and make their own decisions to suit there situation 
The really great news for us is that both kids are much improved and our latest addition appears so far to be completely unaffected by the same probs as her big brother and sister ------------- http://alterna-tickers.com"> 
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Posted By: Whateversville
Date Posted: 10 April 2011 at 9:28am
Wow, some awsome reading there! I'm seriously considering not getting DS the 15month vaccine so now I can do some good hard research 
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Posted By: GenevieVe1234
Date Posted: 27 May 2011 at 1:25pm
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Hi Pippee
I am also in Medicine and was wondering what papers you were refering to that excluded your children? I have access to all major resources so if you could just give me the title or author it would a help a bunch :) |
Posted By: MamaT
Date Posted: 27 May 2011 at 2:31pm
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DS is coming up 17 months and has had all but the 15 month imms ans I don't think I will continue with the schedule. Although as has been mentioned there is no unbiased research and I'm still quite unsure of my decision. -------------  
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Posted By: High9
Date Posted: 27 May 2011 at 4:08pm
That's exactly how I'm feeling atm, DP has actually forgotten as has his family so it's been ok and no pressure there but I was at the doctors with DD and my mum yesterday and my mum saw the sign and kept going on and on about it! ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Isabella
Date Posted: 27 May 2011 at 8:07pm
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My wee one is a week overdue for her 3month vxn because she has had a cold..
I understand the immunology behind vaccines as have been trained in this area, and the whole herd immunity thing is really important (a certain number of the population have to be vaccinated in order to protect the entire population against the disease)... I think that the information provided to us is very pro-vxn because the diseases in which we are vaccinating against are really nasty ones where if the herd immunity goes down could cause a problem with the kiddies in NZ... Having said that - I was seriously worried about getting my bubbas first vxns because of the worry of side effects... I think I cried more than she did during them and I am dreading taking her in next week for her 3 month jabs.. Im not 'debating the issue' here.. I guess what I am trying to say is - you can even have a degree in immunology (which is what vaccination is basically) and still not be totally ok with it when it comes to doing your OWN child! Haha - crazy stuff.. In all reality I think I will probably just be a sheep and trot along to the next appointment where they jab my poor wee girl while I spend the rest of the day feeling terrible for holding her down for some nasty nurse to jab her leg 
Good luck with the research Bowie - good on you for making sure you are comfortable with whats happening - and shame on the nurse - not cool.. |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 27 May 2011 at 8:23pm
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The thing with herd immunity is that any protection from vaccination wanes over time (and I say any protection as they don't actually stop you catching the disease anyway) so adults unless they have had the shots again or have caught the disease naturally at some point in their lives are not immune, when was the last time you got shots for childhood diseases? I expect it was when you were a child.
So supposedly we need 95% or some in the US are now saying 100% to get herd immunity, well ok, most vaccines don't even claim to have that sort of efficacy anyway, pertussis for example is only 84% after all three shots are given (NZ immunisation handbook 2011) , plus those children who can't be immunised because of immune disorders, allergies etc coupled with the fact that most adults have no immunity and you see that herd immunity is just a fallacy. -------------
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Posted By: mumtooboys
Date Posted: 27 May 2011 at 8:48pm
Apparently the CDC has done some modelling in relation to measles based on waning immunity and those show that the population as a whole, not just children, will be more 'at risk' post 2050 than before the vaccine was ever invented.
I have to say that I am slightly worried that the vaccines I had as a child might not be 'protecting' me now, but still not enough to go out and get vaccines every 5-10 years from now until I die. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: TheBabe
Date Posted: 28 May 2011 at 7:55pm
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Speaking of immunity and stuff - I was speaking to this lady just the other day who said her 15yo daughter got given the menzb jab (without her permission), she got the second one in the set and got really sick. After a bit of misdiagnosing she was finally treated for the meningitis strain she was partway through being immunised against. She ended up in a 12 day coma and now at 21 is still mentally and physically behind and has severe photophobia and other related issues. The doctor told her mum that the most dangerous thing in his opinion about immunisations is that it doesn't stop people getting sick but in the case of menzb it stops the rash developing, causing misdiagnoses and fatalities. He said the amount of deaths due to the menzb strain is still high its just that people don't recognise it as that illness therefore it doesn't get put out there.
I've spoken to a couple of other doctors who have also said that they believe there is a huge amount of children who have reactions to their imms but its impossible to tie the reaction together with the injection because reactions can be so varied and affect different children at defferent periods of time after the imms. |
Posted By: millemama
Date Posted: 29 May 2011 at 8:21pm
Well said! We haven't vax'd our DD, I didn't even let them give her a Vit K shot, but this was after much research also. Although I don't bring the subject up unless asked, as it seems to inflame certain pro-vaxers from what I have read online, we are happy with our decision and will do so for our next one along. Don't be pressurised by outsiders this is purely your personal choice either way. Good luck and good on you for asking, and remember the more you are informed the better your will be able to stand up to any pressure  ------------- http://daisypath.com"> 
http://lilypie.com"> 
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