WHY?
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Category: Have A Baby?
Forum Name: First baby? Second or more?
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Topic: WHY?
Posted By: 1st_Time_Preggies
Subject: WHY?
Date Posted: 20 January 2011 at 10:02am
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My 11 month old son has been screaming before bedtime for months now. I had finally started to crack it before he got an ear infection :-( Now the screaming is back and it is HORRIBLE. Makes me feel like a total failure and soooo frustrated cause I don't understand WHY. He is also waking NUMEROUS times in the night which is making for one tired mummy.
He wakes btw 6-7am, has two naps around 9.30am for an hour, and 2-2.30pm for an hour and a half. He can go to sleep PERFECTLY fine for these!!! Then he has dinner at 5pm ish, playtime till bathtime at 6pm. Bottle or boob at 6.40pm ish, cuddle, story, then I sing him a lullaby in his room and put him to bed around 7pm. We have done this for MONTHS. I have tried numerous things to try to make it "better" for him including: shifting his bedtime by 15 min either side, reading more stories, moving his boob time closer/further away from bed, reading a book in bed, singing longer, letting him cry. NOTHING works. The latter he just becomes hysterical and no way will he sleep. So last night I put him down and he started crying. So I sat in the feeding chair, not making any eye contact and decided to see if it made any difference. It did!!!!! He stopped crying. Then started mucking around in his cot. He stood, sat, played with his cuddly, blankets, rolled around, talked to himself, you name it. Basically he did not sit still for over an hour! Eventually he lay down and I thought I had cracked it. But then the tears started. And he sat up and cried. And then got hysterical. So back to square one. Anyone got any light bulb moments as to WHY or what I am doing wrong here? Am I missing something??? Should I try putting him to bed later as he obviously has a lot of energy left? I am tempted to cut his naps down or maybe just one nap but I don't think he can last till 11 ish and am scared he won't sleep long enough to last till bedtime. Your thoughts/ideas GREATLY APPRECIATED!!! |
Replies:
Posted By: ElfsMum
Date Posted: 20 January 2011 at 10:20am
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i have no great advice but Liam started doing the same thing.. for him it was teething..and once the tooth came through he went back to normal..it did my head in as even when he was an awful day sleeper he self settled at night.. we just held onto him to put him to sleep at night and the rest of the time let him cry for a few mins in teh daytime.. and just winged it really.. *hugs * to you cause i know how awful it is!:) ------------- Mum to two amazing boys! |
Posted By: Zaylah
Date Posted: 20 January 2011 at 10:35am
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Sorry can't help. Just wanted you to know you're not alone!
One of my girls has been doing this for a while now. Taken her to the doctor and all that, they said its 'normal baby behaviour'. However she goes stiff as a board and has the most hysterical scream which she keeps up until exhaustion finally makes her sleep. My Mum is really worried she will give herself a hernia or similar. The sceaming can last for hours. She is perfect for her day sleeps, and once she is asleep at night, if she wakes up, she is fine and can self-settle back to sleep. It makes no difference whether we pick her up / sing / talk etc so I don't think it's a seperation anxiety thing. We put her bedtime earlier by 2 hours and it didn't make a difference (although the girls seem to sleep just as long with the earlier bed time so have kept it). Basically as soon as she has finished her last feed, she starts getting whingy. Then as soon as she sees we are taking her to her bed, she starts. We have tried feeding her a bit earler so she can play for a bit after, but no diffence made. Big *hugs*. I know it sucks. I cry almost as much as she does now, just because I don't understand what she wants/needs... So you're definitely not along hun!!! Stick in there, and let me know if you have any luck! ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: millymollymandy
Date Posted: 20 January 2011 at 10:47am
| before I reply - one question, are you happy for honest replies even if you might not like what I'm going to say? You're obviously quite fragile right now and I'd hate to make matters worse. |
Posted By: Nothing
Date Posted: 20 January 2011 at 10:51am
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Have you tired the verbal reassurance technique? Quite a few ladies in the April 2010 thread are doing it right now and its working really well. Basically you check back in after 5, 10, 15 mins. Its on the sleep store site. Good luck
http://www.thesleepstore.co.nz/Sleep+Information/Babies+4+to+12+months/The+Verbal+Reassurance+Technique+for+self+settling.html ------------- 
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Posted By: 1st_Time_Preggies
Date Posted: 20 January 2011 at 11:03am
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Millymollymandy, I'm guessing you are just going to say let him cry? That he is "manipulating me"??? I am happy for honest answers, even if they make me sad.
Aethelia, I haven't tried the VRT as such, but I think that might have to be the next option. I am at my wits end, but I really wish I didn't have to leave him to cry. |
Posted By: High9
Date Posted: 20 January 2011 at 11:51am
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I did 3 mins, 5 mins, 7 mins with Lily and it worked, haven't tried it again because now she's crawling she's finding it hard to go off to sleep!
One thing I 'cracked' with Lily was what she wore to bed + the temp in the room when she went to bed and during the night, so basically making sure she was at a comfortable temp all night. Another thing that I've noticed with Lily is if she still has heaps of energy left that there isn't much point putting her down until she's lost most or all of it. The last week she's been going to bed about 10-10.30pm not ideal for most but I don't work so not an issue for me personally but she sleeps much better (or sleeps in general!) once I let her burn that energy other wise she literally sits in her cot jumping up and down! ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: hils10
Date Posted: 20 January 2011 at 11:59am
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You're definitely not alone. Settling to sleep seems to be a common problem for babies this age from what I can tell - maybe its just something you need to ride out (sorry I know thats not very helpful).
My 11 month old used to settle herself quite well, but the past few months its been getting harder and harder for her to switch off and go to sleep. We don't have a problem with screaming at bedtime - unless she is left in her cot for a long time to settle herself. Our problem is that she just really alert (even when obviously tired) and won't switch off, and now that she can get up and crawl around the cot its even harder. We have basically resorted to rocking her to sleep for both her nap and evening bedtime, which I would really like to get out of as she is getting too big, and will soon be going to daycare. If I leave her to settle herself occasionally she will settle herself after 20-30 mins of crawling around, playing with stuff in her cot, but more often that not is often still mucking around after 45min to an hour, even if she's been really sleepy when I first put her down, and then will start crying (not a grizzly, going to sleep cry but an "i need you now" cry - probably cos by then shes overtired!). So solutions? I dunno really. We are just trying a really consistent bedtime routine with a longish wind-down period in the hope that she'll eventually just get better at it. The things I did to teach her to self-settle when she was younger (putting her down slightly awake and gradually reducing my involvement) don't work anymore. On days when she only has one nap (which is most days now, usually down between 10 and 11 and sleeps for about 1.5-2 hrs) she is much more tired and will sometimes be almost asleep by the time I put her in bed. Last night she was almost asleep by the end of our bedtime routine and actually went to sleep straight away when I put in bed instead of jumping up like an energizer bunny when I put in bed, so maybe we are making progress Maybe you just need to experiment a little with nap/bedtimes? |
Posted By: millymollymandy
Date Posted: 20 January 2011 at 12:57pm
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OK here is my honest opinion....
From what I have read i think your bub is confused about what he needs to go to sleep at night when he wakes. Sometimes he gets rocked etc, and if you sit in there he goes, "what is it playtime? Am I meant to get up, stay here???" One message he does get consistently is that he can't do it on his own. I HAVE BEEN THERE! I so depserately wanted for DD not cry that I was teaching her the wrong things. Yes I think was wrong, but heck who the heck is supposed to know what do? She was so much happier once she leanrt wake and put herself back to sleep. I have NEVER advocated LEAVING any baby to cry, and have I ever said any baby is manipulative, but yes I do think if they want to learn to sleep own their all night then there has to be some crying. (Even the last page of the No Cry Sleep Solution says there will be crying!). I would do verbal reassurance and I would stick with it religlously for two weeks, no giving in an feeding, cuddles and back to bed, but no rocking to sleep. But I'd doubt it would take that long. A I honestly beleive that will about a million times better than whats happening now. This is what worked for all my antinatal class and all of my friends. If it didn't work (and I would be suprised if it didn't) to be pushing my doctor to get you both of to sleep clinic. If you don't want to do this then, I would do what people in other cultures do and co-sleep with him until he's older. At least that way you'll some sleep and sanity. I don't want to sound blunt or harsh but for me this changed and maybe saved my life, I'm nearly 38 years old and I just can't cope sleep deprivation and be a good responsive Mum. I |
Posted By: 1st_Time_Preggies
Date Posted: 20 January 2011 at 1:19pm
I hear you Millymollymandy  I just don't understand why day time naps are okay though??? What is the difference??
I have talked my DH and we have decided to the do the VRT next weekend. Unfortunately tbh I am TOO weak and can't stand to hear him cry for that long, so I am going to stay a few houses down while he deals with it. It is a cop out I know, but I am at my wits end and just don't know what else to do 
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Posted By: millymollymandy
Date Posted: 20 January 2011 at 1:57pm
| Good approach! I don't know why naps aren't a problem, they weren't us either, go figure. I don't know why some kids just grow of this either, mine is very alert and just doesn't respond well to similation at bedtime. I bet if DH has one good night on his own, you will feel heaps braver after that. |
Posted By: LILLIS
Date Posted: 20 January 2011 at 2:08pm
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Oh I feel your pain.
My DD got into a habit of being rocked to sleep over the holidays - admittedly it was my own fault - then every night became a battle of crying and fighting and rocking it was horrible. And we had the same things - daysleeps were fine but nights werent.... sometimes I think it is the tension we feel in ourselves knowing it will be a hassle to get them to sleep 
I too hated hearing her cry - it just tore me apart. Then I read the sleepsense program and I found it really good to help me understand some things, in her and myself. We are only on night 4 of this program today but I can tell you it is working well for us, and night one is always the worst. I just tell myself if I can do it on the other nights I can handle tonight. I found the going in every 5-10-15 mins didnt work well for us because each time I would go in she would get hysterical when I left again. They do have other options you can try to if they work for you. Sending you big hugs! ------------- http://lilypie.com">  
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Posted By: 1st_Time_Preggies
Date Posted: 20 January 2011 at 2:19pm
| Can someone pm me the sleepsense programme? I have read it AGES ago but can't remember anymore. |
Posted By: Zaylah
Date Posted: 20 January 2011 at 5:19pm
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Blah if this doesn't work then I don't know what we would do!
We have done 4 nights of the 1-3-5-7-10-15minute thing and the first 3 nights she was getting slightly better. Last night was way worse than it has ever been. Tonight will be night 5 and we will keep trying for a couple of more nights. Co-sleeping wouldn't work with us - none of my babies like to sleep on/with us (and personally it's not something I would do anyway  ).
Thanks heaps for the thoughts you have all shared with 1st_time_preggers - they are helping over here too! Let us know how you get on 1st_time_preggers! ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: AandCsmum
Date Posted: 20 January 2011 at 5:45pm
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Do you do exactly the same thing when you put him down for a nap as you do when he goes to bed at night?
I did the 5 min thing. It's hard but it's doable, but if they are screaming hard out then I go back in straight away. ------------- Kel http://lilypie.com"> 
A = 01.02.04 & C = 16.01.09 & G = 30.03.12 |
Posted By: crafty1
Date Posted: 20 January 2011 at 6:14pm
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I agree with some of the others that it sounds like you need to try one of these programmes and be really consistent with whichever one you pick.
It will be a bit painful with some crying regardless of which one you pick, but at the end of it you will have a baby who sleeps without the need for all this input from you in the night. Better sleeping mummy and baby so both happier. FX it works quickly for you. He'll be so much happier when he can get off to sleep himself without all this crying. At the moment there is no end in sight and it sounds like he wants to be able to do it himself and is old enough to be able to, just needs to be nudged in the right direction. ------------- http://lilypie.com">  
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Posted By: Speck8
Date Posted: 20 January 2011 at 7:41pm
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I agree with millymollymandy hun!!! Sleeping a few houses down is a good idea or anything else you can do so you can't hear the crying.
Just hold on to the fact that you AND DS will feel so much better once this is sorted. And whilst it is hard to let your DS cry - the sooner you get him to self settle, the less crying he will do in the long run! As to why he settles so well for day sleeps - could it be that he's always settled so well during the day and so you've never had to try the hundred and one things that you've tried at night time and therefore he isn't confused? Some bubs have it the other way around - settle well at night time but are a nightmare to get down during the day. |
Posted By: hils10
Date Posted: 21 January 2011 at 8:59am
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I agree, you have to be really consistent - but I'm not convinced that babies have to be self-settling at the start of the night in order to sleep well the rest of the night. That doesn't seem to be the case in our house anyway. Our DD's sleeping has dramatically improved over the last week - from 3-4 wakeups needing us to resettle her down to 1-2, and last night she did her 2nd 7hr stretch of the week! And we are still pretty much rocking her to sleep at the start of the night, although we try to put her down before she's totally asleep. We do have a really consistent bedtime routine and give her the opportunity to settle herself, but it doesn't usually work - and she's even worse for naps.
I don't know whats changed this week, she just now seems to be able to resettle herself when she wakes in the night - we often hear her give a little cry and shuffle round abit then go back to sleep. I think she is more used to being mobile now and can get herself comfy, and maybe its just a maturity thing?. Also don't know if this has anything to do with it, but I stopped bf entirely about 2 weeks ago so now there is no option of a middle of the night bf (she has a half-bottle of formula around 10-11pm but thats pretty much it most nights). Not that I'm suggesting stopping bf (I had other reasons for wanting to stop)
Anyway, thats just my 2c, and every baby's different. Hope you find something that works soon! |
Posted By: jano1
Date Posted: 21 January 2011 at 2:27pm
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Sounds like you have had lots of good advice. When my DD was that age we went through the same thing, naps were fine but bedtime was a nightmare. We used the stay in the room technique. I would put her down and then sit with her until she calmed down but wouldn't talk to her or interact, she knew I was there for comfort but not to play. Gradually over the next 2 weeks we moved the chair further from her cot until we were able to put her in bed, turn off the light and say goodnight.
That worked well for us and then we hit another bad patch where we used the verbal reassurance technique. That worked too but took about a month to stop her from yelling the house down. The baby whisperer forum (the U.S website) has lots of forums dedicated to these techniques and mums who have been there, done that. Hope that helps
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Posted By: millymollymandy
Date Posted: 21 January 2011 at 2:54pm
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Hils to be honest I think you are very lucky if you don't need do the same for every waking. There came a point with us that rocking didn't work.
At at some point they have to stop being rocked/feed to sleep, as you know number 2 comes along and Mum is 6 months PG, tired and sore, or No 2 is needing to be feed/changed etc, or simply that no. 1 is now 14KG! And a 2 year is a lot more vocal and determind than a 1 year old. Sadly all bubs develop and grow in independent little people. I think the level of sleep deprivation that people put themselves thru is dangerous. Here's a article from the gems at the sleepstore on the negatives adult sleep deprivation and not getting babies into good sleep patterns. http://www.thesleepstore.co.nz/Sleep+Information/Babies+4+to+12+months/Are+there+any+negative+effects+of+teaching+your+baby+to+self+settle.html Gotta - my DD has been sleeping for 3 hours (and me for one before this1) - best I wake her or she'll want to stay up all night! |
Posted By: hils10
Date Posted: 21 January 2011 at 9:19pm
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Oh believe me, I would love to not be rocking her to sleep Just that in our experience, the manner in which she falls asleep seems to have little bearing on how long she stays asleep - in fact I think she actually sleeps longer when she's rocked to sleep. But we are working on getting her off that cos I know its bad and can't go on for ever!
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Posted By: 1st_Time_Preggies
Date Posted: 22 January 2011 at 8:42am
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Hils10, its not "BAD" if it works and you don't mind. But if it is getting to be a problem, then I guess working on it slowly is the only option!
CRAP CRAP CRAP night here Have started on a mission to adjust his nap times to see if that makes ANY difference at all. Last night he screamed as per usual at bedtime BUT it did not take AS long to get to sleep and the screaming was not as intense.
However he still woke two hourly overnight and the 4.30am wake up took an HOUR, even tried b/fing which didn't do a damn thing. My DH is getting better at settling him at night so I might have to start sending him in, so there is no boobie option 
The little man then slept in till 8am! So we all did  So today I am going to only give him one nap around 1pm.
I was going to cut his morning nap right down to half an hour and then give him an afternoon nap, but am wondering whether it would be easier and nicer on everyone if I just gave him ONE nap, instead of trying to wake him from his first one?? |
Posted By: millymollymandy
Date Posted: 22 January 2011 at 12:31pm
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I would do it slowly, I found if I did too bigger jump they get OT and don't nap at all and sadly, wake more at night. I friends advice was 15mins, every three days, which was great advice. Most under 2s got to sleep between 12-12.30 one nap.
Sounds like you are making progress at night, just be consistent and do the same thing every time, so he learns, that yes you are there, but that getting himself of to sleep is the only outcome. |
Posted By: JoJames
Date Posted: 22 January 2011 at 12:59pm
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Did you get a copy of the sleepsense programme? If you PM me you email, I can send it to you if you want. ------------- http://www.alterna-tickers.com"> 
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Posted By: Disco
Date Posted: 22 January 2011 at 4:58pm
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We had the exact same thing happen just before christmas. Went down for naps during the day or at night no problem. Then all of a sudden, we got hysterical crying but would stop and smile and giggle when I went in to console her.
In the end we did the sleepstore recommendation, going in 5, 10, 15 mins took a week or two but we got there. Was hard to listen too but we're back to going to sleep with no tears and everyone is happy :) I think it might be a phase they go through?? hope it's getting better for you. disco:) |
Posted By: 1st_Time_Preggies
Date Posted: 22 January 2011 at 8:43pm
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OH MY GOODNESS, DS only had an hour's nap today (long story) and I warned my hubby it was NOT enough. He said: maybe he shouldn't sleep at all during the day. What a load of bull!!! And we are sure paying for it now. Instead of waking two hourly, so far tonight he was woken every 45 min. What a complete nightmare
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Posted By: Keleho
Date Posted: 22 January 2011 at 9:36pm
Hugs 1TP  It really does make life difficult if babies dont sleep like they *should*.
I was chatting to you over on the T forum as well - im the one doing Verbal Reassurance at the moment. If you want to chat to a heap of us that have done it with massive success, pop into the April 2010 bubs. There is so many of us that have just or are currently going through it that could be good motivation if you wanted to head down that route. Tonight was my 5th night doing VR and DD went down wide awake, grizzled slightly for 30 seconds and then went to sleep. No fuss what so ever. Ive also noticed since starting that she sleeps a lot better. Before, no way would I got in her room as she slept as she would wake and that would be it. Tonight I managed to pull two toys out from under her and then turn her over onto her back (she was in an odd position), all while she slept - opened her eyes slightly but no noise, no waking, straight back to sleep. No denying it is hard to listen to but IMO it was hard before as well, just in a different way. I hope things improve for you soon, no matter which method you choose to follow ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: millymollymandy
Date Posted: 23 January 2011 at 5:48pm
| KerryLea - great work on the VR - it worked brilliantly for us too! And yes I found we had a much deaper sleeper after that. |
Posted By: 1st_Time_Preggies
Date Posted: 07 February 2011 at 2:58pm
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An update! We have been trialling one nap around 11-11.30am and so far it seems to have improved our nights. Mostly goes down okay in the evenings now, and the last two nights has slept from 7pm till 3.30am!!!!! Unheard of :-) I'm sure it won't last but I am enjoying it while it lasts!!!
However, we are still struggling with the 3/4/5am wake up. It happens every night and he is very hard to settle. Sometimes he will settle and then wake up 45 min later. Anyone else had this? I hear him settle himself at other times, so not sure why this one is so difficult. His room is warm, he is not wet, and I have night weaned him so am not giving him any boobie in the night anymore. |
Posted By: 1st_Time_Preggies
Date Posted: 07 February 2011 at 3:02pm
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An update! We have been trialling one nap around 11-11.30am and so far it seems to have improved our nights. Mostly goes down okay in the evenings now, and the last two nights has slept from 7pm till 3.30am!!!!! Unheard of :-) I'm sure it won't last but I am enjoying it while it lasts!!!
However, we are still struggling with the 3/4/5am wake up. It happens every night and he is very hard to settle. Sometimes he will settle and then wake up 45 min later. Anyone else had this? I hear him settle himself at other times, so not sure why this one is so difficult. His room is warm, he is not wet, and I have night weaned him so am not giving him any boobie in the night anymore. |
Posted By: tiptoes
Date Posted: 07 February 2011 at 6:34pm
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That's such good news that your having some success with night settling since switching to one nap. Yay!!! Even if it doesn't last (and fingers crossed it does!) it's nice to know they CAN go to sleep a bit easier and you can have a bit more of an evening ------------- http://alterna-tickers.com">  
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Posted By: 1st_Time_Preggies
Date Posted: 07 February 2011 at 7:18pm
| Congrats on the pregnancy Chelle!!! :-) |
Posted By: 1st_Time_Preggies
Date Posted: 07 February 2011 at 8:08pm
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Argh, I totally jinxed it and he is screaming in bed as we speak. Sucks
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Posted By: CJsays
Date Posted: 10 February 2011 at 3:36pm
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Oh dear sounds like you are having a real hard time of it, I can understand your frustration as our wee one has colicy episodes and it does make you feel quite useless. The only thing we have found that helps is a bath right before she tends to do it (bath at 8pm as she tends to go off at 9 or 10pm till 1 or 2am argh). The bath relaxes her, we dump a pile of food into her (still bottle topping up the BFing so we give her lots of bottle top up!) and she has gone off to sleep and stayed that way perfectly the last 2 nites. COuld be worth a try for you? I really hope something works for you, sounds like it has been going on for a while for you now ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: tiptoes
Date Posted: 10 February 2011 at 6:37pm
Thanks ------------- http://alterna-tickers.com">
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1st_Time_Preggies wrote: