Seriously?... no I mean, SERIOUSLY?
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Category: Planning Pregnancy (trying for baby)
Forum Name: Planning Pregnancy (trying for baby)
Forum Description: Trying to get pregnant? Going through fertility treatment? Just planning your first or second child? There are many people out there in the same boat to help and listen and share with
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Topic: Seriously?... no I mean, SERIOUSLY?
Posted By: astral_monkey
Subject: Seriously?... no I mean, SERIOUSLY?
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 4:45pm
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I don't really like judging people I don't even know, but... seriously?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/health/news/article.cfm?c_id=204&objectid=10698646 - http://www.nzherald.co.nz/health/news/article.cfm?c_id=204&objectid=10698646 You want a girl, sure fine, I have no problem with that, it's the 'aborted twin boys' part that leaves me speechless. I'm all for freedom of choice - I think it's just after 2 years of TTC with no success the thought of people wanting a 'certain' child so badly they would abort two perfectly healthy fetus's just... I can even find the words...... ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">  |
Replies:
Posted By: Tiff8ny
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 5:03pm
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that makes me sick :-( dont they realise ANY of us TTC girls would LOVE twin boys!!! we arent fussy! ------------- Me 32, DH 30 TTC 4+ years Unexplained Infertility IVF#1 - Chem Pregnancy,no frosties IVF#2 - BFP!!!! Plus 1 frostie 
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Posted By: CrazyCass
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 5:06pm
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Thats pretty weird - you'd think that if they didnt want them they'd adopt them out at least ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: LadyBee
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 5:28pm
Its sick!!  aborting the babies because they are boys due to her wanting a girl.
What gets me is how far along in her pregnancy was she to find out they were boys ? And who the hell let her abort the pregnancy in the first place? surely she would of had to go through some questioning due to them being IVF bubs?and or BEFORE she got IVF have some counselling to help her through the possibilty of having another boy, I mean its a 50/50 chance surely she would of prepared herself for this. If they were allowed to choose their gender( and I hope they get thrown out of court) , Where will it stop? There will be designer babies everywhere! ------------- TTC for 4 1/2 years IVF #1 - April 2012 short BFP, no frosties IVF #2 - August 2012, BFP!! 3 frosties! http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: LJsmum
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 6:31pm
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there's a whole thread on this on in the news section.
It is shocking and should not have been allowed to happen, poor babies who never had a chance at life 
Shocking they are trying to have a replacement girl for the one they lost. I also feel sorry for the 3 other boys who will find out their parents killed their brothers, just awful. They could have adopted out... -------------  
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Posted By: kelzie_rose
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 7:01pm
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That made me cry. I can't stand this. Someone in the Charting thread mentioned that someone she knew someone who had previously had two abortions, was accidentally pregnant again. The world is a cruel dark place that is out to hurt us. -------------  Started TTC Apr 2008 With PCOS and a bicornuate uterus Our angel babies Jan 2010 <3 Oct 2010 <3 Apr 2011 <3 |
Posted By: Raspberryjam
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 7:35pm
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disgusting ------------- http://lilypie.com] 
http://lilypie.com] 
http://lilypie.com] 
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Posted By: High9
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 9:41pm
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I think it's disgusting - agree she could have at least adopted them out! Imo you get what you get. Regardless of how the baby comes out iygwim. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: Birdie
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 9:42am
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People like that make me sick, they should be happy with what they have, you can't always get what you want but should make the most of what you get. Should people this callous (sp) seriously be allowed to have more children if they are just going to abort them for an unreasonable reason? ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: DTBW
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 9:57am
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OMG if they killed IVF babies they should NOT be allowed to do IVF again ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: CarleyRose
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 10:48am
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I agree DTBW! That's what i thought! There are so many people waiting for IVF! How can they really do that! ------------- TTC Sept08 July10 FS APP ICSI#1 BFN-No frosties ICSI#2 BFN-2 Frosties FET-8th August - BFP 20/8/12 http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: MakeItWork
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 10:53am
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I don't want to be too controversial here but surely it comes pretty close to being murder when you go to the trouble of IVF to deliberately conceive and then decide to give up on them an abort!
I just hope someone gets them some serious help as they clearly have deep mental issues that need to be resolved. Another child isn't the solution. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">  TTC Since Oct 10 - PCOS Our beautiful girl sadly born sleeping April 2012 |
Posted By: 5th...and final??
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 3:53pm
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i know by the number of replies, compared to the number of people who have viewed this thread, that many are stopping and thinking before they reply.....
but please do. the comments made so far are not helpful to anyone. this is a complex issue and the media never give full coverage. we are lucky to live in a country where IVF is available. we are lucky to live in a country where abortion is available to those who choose it. please don't judge other women for their decisions. ------------- 
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Posted By: LadyBee
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 5:10pm
 ------------- TTC for 4 1/2 years IVF #1 - April 2012 short BFP, no frosties IVF #2 - August 2012, BFP!! 3 frosties! http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Tiff8ny
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 6:40pm
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I don't really care if my post on this thread was helpful or not!I'm just expressing my opinion which I have a right too and I totally think this couple are selfish,after over 3 years ttc#1 and having ivf in march myself I would NEVER even dream of aborting a miracle ivf baby when there are SO many people who can't get pregnant that desperately want too.
I'm sorry if you don't have the same opinion as me but hey everyone is different and theres nothing wrong with that. ------------- Me 32, DH 30 TTC 4+ years Unexplained Infertility IVF#1 - Chem Pregnancy,no frosties IVF#2 - BFP!!!! Plus 1 frostie
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Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 6:45pm
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I don't agree with abortion full stop, but even I think there is something even worse about choosing to abort babies you tried for just because the babies had the wrong genitalia. They must have known before they started trying that they were going to abort if they got a boy and that is just sick, digusting, and in my opinion inhuman to do something so calculated.
I don't care what they have been through it does not give them the right to end the life of two children. I also worry for her mental health after doing this, I'm sure at some point she will realise the gravity of what she has done and we have three dead children to mourn instead of just one. ------------- 
 
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Posted By: kelzie_rose
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 7:22pm
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Also, they've conceived before. Heaps of people haven't and have to wait for, and hope that IVF works out.
I second Tiff, these are our opinions, and I feel like to me, it feels like a slap in the face. I'd have taken those boys and loved them so much. ------------- Started TTC Apr 2008 With PCOS and a bicornuate uterus Our angel babies Jan 2010 <3 Oct 2010 <3 Apr 2011 <3 |
Posted By: 5th...and final??
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 9:26pm
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to judge someone is to form an opinion after careful consideration.
so far all i have seen is raw emotion slapped on a page. i have not stated my opinion on the matter. i just asked for some forethought. -------------
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Posted By: 5th...and final??
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 9:28pm
will be back later for some healthy debate  -------------
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Posted By: _Lou_
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 9:44pm
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It is true that the media do not always give a balanced view on a topic, however I am struggling to understand what more information could be added to this story that would make it ok? These people have 3 healthy (or so it leads us to believe) sons and what attention is being given to them about how this may be affecting them? I agree with what the girls have said, in my opinion its not right and nor will it ever be right to abort a baby because it is not the gender the parents want!
And furthermore, there will be raw emotion in a TTC thread where some women here are experiencing difficulties concieving and a blimen hard time on any given day without reading about people like this. This just rubs salt in an already sore wound for a lot of women. Judging or not, I don't agree at all. But that woman needs some serious help. |
Posted By: Tiff8ny
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 9:51pm
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Hear hear Lou!!!!!!!well said x ------------- Me 32, DH 30 TTC 4+ years Unexplained Infertility IVF#1 - Chem Pregnancy,no frosties IVF#2 - BFP!!!! Plus 1 frostie
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Posted By: kelzie_rose
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 9:54pm
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I agree Lou x ------------- Started TTC Apr 2008 With PCOS and a bicornuate uterus Our angel babies Jan 2010 <3 Oct 2010 <3 Apr 2011 <3 |
Posted By: 5th...and final??
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 10:36pm
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In my experience, raising the issue of abortion in a forum for TTC never goes well.
(thats not meant to offend astral_monkey, its just an observation). i know that most of the ladies in this forum will be experiencing grief. my comments are not intended to inflict further pain, i am attempting to provide another perspective. i don't expect anyone will say 'oh she's right'. these conversations tend to peter out once everyone agrees to disagree, or in my case i tend to bow out once personal insults start being banded about. so... to address the broad issues first? or the specific article? -------------
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Posted By: 5th...and final??
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 11:37pm
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IVF. its always been controversial and it will always raise ethical dilema's.
the latest ethical question to be debated in NZ and Australia is that of gender selection and Preimplantation Genetic Diagnosis (PGD). Our governments and courts are making decisions on this at the moment. THATS the reason this article is in the media. Its a pre-amble into the discussion of whether she should have been allowed to choose the gender of her embryo BEFORE it was implanted. thus avoiding the 'termination' altogether. please consider that before the topic of genetic testing (with a view to gender selection), issues such as allowing single mothers to undergo IVF, older women, and homosexual couples to conceive have been debated. Without PGD, termination occurs in IVF as it does in naturally conceived fetuses - not for gender selection specifically, but for other 'health' reasons, i.e. down syndrome etc. In countries where there is no antenatal testing to speak of (i.e ultrasound) infant mortality directly attributable to gender exists. yes, baby girls are left to starve. In other countries where antenatal testing does exist, it is legal to abort right up until term. *slightly off-topic*currently, here in NZ if you have HIV you cannot get funded IVF- but you can if you have other serious, life-threatening genetic "diseases". Termination - well, you either agree or disagree. Nothing i say here will change your views on that. And while it encompasses a wide range of reasons, I can appreciate that gender will be a trivial reason to most. But I will point out that embryos are binned daily, sometimes only becuase the payment for frozen storage has not been paid. choosing to abort due to gender of the fetus is not new (either conceived naturally or IVF) you can undergo CVS at 10 weeks. you can terminate up to 20weeks for no other reason than mental well-being of the mother. there is a blood test that purports to be able to detect fetal Y chromosome in maternal blood at 6weeks of pregnancy. it has not been scientifically tested, one would hope people are not choosing to terminate based on that. -------------
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Posted By: 5th...and final??
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 12:11am
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the article -
the couple have 3 sons, conceived naturally. it does not state how long ago. the article states 'they still grieve for a daughter they lost soon after birth...' well, who wouldn't ???? they desire another daughter. this does not mean they seek to 'replace' their lost daughter. she is in her 30's. it does not say which end of the scale she is at. she might be 38, pushing 39! they underwent IVF. the article does not state whether this was due to fertility reasons, or for the sole reason of conceiving a daughter. PRESUMABLY, if she did not need help conceiving then she would have been realistic about 50/50 odds and would not have undertaken IVF. PRESUMABLY, if her sole reason for IVF was to employ 'gender swaying' methods, like microsort etc. she was pushing for 90/10 and hoping like hell she didn't have to face a decision. She was unable to employ PGD technologies for the reason of gender selection. she had no choice but to implant, then test, and then make a choice. IVF resulted in a twin pregnancy, boys. PRESUMABLY she tested for gender at the earliest possible stage. the article states it had been a traumatic decision to make but that they could not continue to have unlimited numbers of children. MY INTERPRETATION of that comment is that she did not undertake it lightly, that she will always grieve/question/remember her decision, and that her decision does not make her less of a mother to her existing sons. If you consider that she has 3 children to look after already, and that she may feel she can only cope with another 1 or 2 - continuing with a twin boy pregnancy meant she had to give up on desire to have a daughter. I am not saying i agree with her decision, but i can understand why she made it. (yes, there is a difference) legaility issues - patient review board said 'no' you can't choose based on gender. so this is a TEST CASE for a tribunal hearing. that PRB decision can be overturned. which would make it the first case where a couple have been allowed to choose the gender of their implanted embryo in Australia for no other reason than gender. You have to have a line of reasoning in a law case, they chose 'it has become vital to her psychological health'. sounds very similar the legal reason a women can choose to terminate an otherwise healthy pregnancy to me. it then goes on to state the opinions on gender selection (pre-implantation) of the pioneer of Australian IVF - who agrees with it as "it harms no-one". (read that again, not abortion based on gender - selecting gender of IVF embyos) and the opposing view held by the current gene ethics director, who (in my opinion) flippantly suggested they could adopt (another topic!). -------------
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Posted By: LadyBee
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 8:07am
Well said Lou and totally agree  ------------- TTC for 4 1/2 years IVF #1 - April 2012 short BFP, no frosties IVF #2 - August 2012, BFP!! 3 frosties! http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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_Lou_ wrote:Posted By: Birdie
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 8:58am
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------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 8:59am
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At the end of the day she could have gone to court to get gender selection first not after aborting the twins.
There is no justification for her actions at all. -------------
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Posted By: 5th...and final??
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 9:31am
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She also could have paid to go to the USA and undergo PGD privately. I don't agree with her choice. I am just trying to point out that the productive conversation to be having is that surrounding IVF technologies, not a discussion on the termination of healthy fetuses (regardless of the reason for termination).
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Posted By: Vanillabean
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 11:06am
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I agree its difficult to understand this choice especially for those, and I count myself in this camp for a period of several years in my life, who are desperate to have a child. It all seems very extreme.
However, I wonder if this obsession with having a girl is related to the couple having lost a girl baby in the past and trying to resolve the grief related to that. It looks as if they are now focused on having a girl to the extent that nothing else matters. I can't help but have some compassion for them. ------------- 5x mc, Jan 08, June 08, Nov 08, May 09, April 11 http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: mummyofprinces
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 11:59am
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I think its so sad that a couple are so grief stricken by the loss of their baby girl that they would go to such extreme measures.
You can think them terrrible, horrible people, I just feel sorry for them.. I do think this decision will haunt them for the rest of their lives much does the loss of their precious baby. I cant begin to imagine the pain and suffering that would cause someone to go so far. I actually dont see any difference in this than any other abortion because the child was unwanted... but its not my place to judge someone on their decisions... -------------   
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Posted By: Troysmum
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 12:41pm
Oh my god, that is NUTS!! I'm trying to concieve my next baby and as this will be my last one i am trying for a girl but NEVER EVER to that extent.I will take whatever I can get. People like that should be shot.
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Posted By: GuestGuest
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 12:46pm
| As much as I don't agree AT ALL with what they did, women have abortions for all kinds of reasons, it's just that this time it got media attention. Sounds like they have some serious problems and I am doubting they made the decision lightly. |
Posted By: Shezamumof3
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 1:08pm
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To terminate one baby because its not a girl is bad enough, but they were having twins, so thats two innocent lives ended due to the selfish fact that they wanted a girl.
It makes me sick and I while i feel for them having lost their wee girl, I think they have serious issues, to abort two healthy baby boys...because they are boys.. Pisses me off to no end. ------------- |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 1:09pm
I would think if you wanted a discussion on IVF technologies then you should have started a seperate thread about it, then you comments might have been better recieved than putting them in here where the tone of the comments should have indicated to you that it wasn't going to be recieved well. -------------
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Posted By: kelzie_rose
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 3:53pm
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Well said, cuppa. ------------- Started TTC Apr 2008 With PCOS and a bicornuate uterus Our angel babies Jan 2010 <3 Oct 2010 <3 Apr 2011 <3 |
Posted By: nicandtyler
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 4:06pm
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I feel so bad for those two innocent little boys I can't even begin to imagine how hard it must be to struggle with fertility issues, and then hear about stories like this. To go through IVF planning on getting pregnant and knowing that you would abort the baby depending on its sex is just awful, and it makes me feel sick. I feel sorry for them that they lost a daughter, but like others have said, they have now lost two more beautiful children, and resolving your own grief at the cost of innocent lives is not ok IMO. One of my closest friends has struggled for years with fertility issues, falling pregnant once and having a daughter, and adopting another daughter. They didn't specify a sex when they went for adoption though because she said that if she was lucky enough to get pregnant naturally then she wouldn't be able to choose the sex. I don't think people should ever be allowed to choose the sex of their baby, although I cant comment on choosing it for a genetic reason/medical reason as I dont know enough about it ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
http://lilypie.com"> 
 April '11
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Posted By: 5th...and final??
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 5:40pm
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The original article was not posted in here by me.
The original article is about the ethics of IVF technologies. I think it is distasteful that the legalities of PGD are being argued over using such an extreme case, but there you go, thats lawyers and the media for you. If this is the first time you have thought about termination being used for such reasons, I guess you will be shocked. But its not new, and it won't be the last time it happens. If you are on your TTC journey, it is extremely relevant to you to think about the ethics of IVF. You won't always like the things you find out. IVF and termination have been coupled since its inception. They are inseperable. I feel if you read that article and the only thing you took from it was that someone chose to terminate their fetuses, then you got side-railed by the inflamatory presentation of a more pressing topic. Its about more than that. I am urging you to think about what you want for yourselves should you ever use IVF, and for future generations of women who use IVF. The question is, Do you want to be able to select the gender of your embryo? Its not about whether you should be able to terminate a fetus (for whatever reason), because that is a given. It will continue to happen. Posting the article in here was guaranteed to get this reaction. It serves no purpose other than to cause grief, UNLESS you stop thinking about other womens right to terminate a pregnancy, and focus on what choices you want technology to bring to your life. -------------
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Posted By: Tiff8ny
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 6:26pm
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When I do my ivf next month I will be sooo over excited with a BFP WHATEVER the gender!!!!!!! ------------- Me 32, DH 30 TTC 4+ years Unexplained Infertility IVF#1 - Chem Pregnancy,no frosties IVF#2 - BFP!!!! Plus 1 frostie
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Posted By: 5th...and final??
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 9:49pm
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FX'd for you Tiff8ny.
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Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 10:02pm
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3rdtimelucky I'm not sure why you are bringing this all up in a thread where it obviously doesn't want to be discussed, if you want a discussion about YOUR topic then start another thread and have it with people that want to have that discussion. Nearly every comment by an IVF mum or women waiting for IVF or those who have been TTC for a long time has been that they would just love a baby, some even saying they gladly would have taken the twins, meaning they don't even care if the baby they have is genetically theirs let alone a certain sex.
I think your comments are just causing more hurt and you really aren't being helpful to women who have been deeply upset that someone else would do something so callous. -------------
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Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 10:03pm
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I see you have removed some of your previous post, I think that was wise and I hope i was the only one that read it. -------------
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Posted By: GuestGuest
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 10:40pm
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3rdtimelucky, from your comments you are obviously just out to provoke a response and have no interests in the feelings of others. I would suggest going back to your science fiction novel
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Posted By: 5th...and final??
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 10:46pm
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*sigh*
May I suggest that the title of this thread is edited to make reference to the fact that it encompasses the topic of abortion. That way, those who will be upset by it, can avoid it. I edited my response prior to readying your reply cuppatea, but I do hope that someone else read it, if only so that someone knows it was not directed at any individual. It was yet another attempt to have a discussion on a topic. I do not intend to make any further comment on the issue. For those who have been hurt by my comments, I apologise. I have deliberately kept my responses unemotional to avoid such a consequence. -------------
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Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 11:31pm
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I didn't suggest your comments were aimed at one person just that it was wise you had removed them and I do hope i was the only person that read them as I've never had issue TTC or had to go through IVF so I'm not personally upset by them but I know some of the other posters would have been.
And the issue is no one wanted a discussion on it, if you were able to use some empathy you would have realised that, pushed the new topic button and had your discussion in another thread with people that want to talk about the wider social issues around PGD instead of bringing it into one where from the title and comments it was obvious people were emotional and upset about this one story. Being non emotional and trying to get other people to have a non emotional discussion when they are obviously upset is unproductive as well as hurtful, that might be a good thing to remember when you want to discuss topics in the future. I have no issue with the title either, it was obvious from the tone and wording that the OP was upset and angry before even entering the thread, and it's normally emotive topics that cause that. I have no issue with you wanting to discuss the topic, I will happily discuss it with you as I'm sure others will, but this is not the right place for it. -------------
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Posted By: astral_monkey
Date Posted: 14 January 2011 at 10:08am
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3rdtimelucky, as the original poster of this topic, I would just like to add my 2 cents before we let the thread shuffle to the back pages.
I understand what you were trying to do. But what you chose to discuss was the greater issue surrounding the article, ignoring my intentions for posting the article in the first place. Although you did touch on this, implying it was a for the trivial reason of illiciting the same response from my peers as I had when reading the article. Ding ding ding! You got it in one!!! I can have long and thorough discussions about the 'big issues'. I can argue for hours about the ramifications of this that and the other thing. But sometimes I read or hear about something and am so floored I just have to share my feelings. That is what I did, and that is all I was doing. If you chose to start a thread on IVF and gender selection (or any other kind of selection), I will undoubtly contribute my 'pro-choice, but a line has to be drawn' opinion. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: mummyofprinces
Date Posted: 14 January 2011 at 5:43pm
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Im really not sure why there is so much focus on persons opinions... if you dont like them ignore them... this thread has turned into a pick on 3rdtimelucky thread...
Back to the OP, I still think its very, very sad. I am sure there are many people out there who would have gladly taken those boys into their hearts, but I dont believe this is "normal" behaviour by mentally healthy individuals and as such I just feel empathy and compassion for them. Im sorry, I am a monster I know but I just can not understand how messed up their daughters death has left them to willingly abort to healthy baby boys.... so, so sad for everyone involved. -------------
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