OHbaby! Forums : ?? for non-vaccinating parents...

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : hi everyone DS is non vacc'd...

Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:59:23 +0000

Author: nicandtyler
Subject: 28691
Posted: 12�July�2010 at 7:59pm

hi everyone DS is non vacc'd as well, these topics are really good to hear about others who have made the same decision! luckily my plunket nurse hasn't given me any slack about it, my doctor has given me a 'talking to' about childhood diseases but that was only once and so far havent had any problems, fingers crossed that continues! im happy with my decision because it was a fully researched one, i mean i literally researched for months and months before i decided, and so far ive had people ask me why i havent vaccinated ds but people have generally been pretty understanding

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : It's a hard one inspir8....

Sun, 11 Jul 2010 13:27:41 +0000

Author: mumtooboys
Subject: 28691
Posted: 11�July�2010 at 1:27pm

It's a hard one inspir8. I have often said to others that I have a sneaking suspicion that these diseases are a lot more common than people realise BECAUSE docs refuse to even consider that someone who has been vaccinated has a vaccine preventable disease.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : It's such a hard decision...

Sun, 11 Jul 2010 12:09:52 +0000

Author: inspir8
Subject: 28691
Posted: 11�July�2010 at 12:09pm

It's such a hard decision not to follow the herd... My first two are fully vaccinated and then I did some "reading" beofre #3 and decided not to vaccinate. Unfortunately she got Whooping Cough at 3 months. However - She got it from an IMMUNISED family who were all a lot sicker than she was with the cough. I was made to feel pretty guilty about not vaccinating her by the GPs we saw when she was sick - so - it's pretty hard on anyone if you kids do get something - becuase the medical system likes to say "I told you so". She did get over the cough just fine and is now almost one year old, still breastfed and only one cold thru this winter so far. I cross my fingers that she doesn't get anything else serious becuase I get my hand 'slapped' anytime I go near the Drs. My point with the vacs is that it's not all black and white. Being immunised doesn't mean you're not going to get something that is going around ( I keep reminding people we got whooping cough from a fully immunised family - that family now do not believe in vaccs becuase they all got so sick and were given the run around by the Drs who refused to believe they had whooping cough). Good luck to you all out there.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Both my coffee groups know that...

Thu, 08 Jul 2010 13:04:45 +0000

Author: cuppatea
Subject: 28691
Posted: 08�July�2010 at 1:04pm

Both my coffee groups know that we don't vax, one of my groups is from off here so would have been hard for them not to know and the other one I dunno how, when or why it came up but they do know. My mum knows and had a wee heart attack when I told her. I asked her how many vaccinations she ever had and she of course has had none, she then started talking to me about measles parties etc that they use to have when she was growing up and seemed to calm down after the initial shock. I don't think the IL's know but we would tell them if they asked or if it came up in conversation. I'm quite open about us not vaxxing, if it comes up in conversation. People are normally too stunned to say much, and I think they quickly gather that I'm pretty read up on it all whereas most parents that vaccinate know nothing at all about them and are just doing them cos that's what you do.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : And that's usually because...

Thu, 08 Jul 2010 12:43:14 +0000

Author: mumtooboys
Subject: 28691
Posted: 08�July�2010 at 12:43pm

And that's usually because they don't think you should have one. LOL I read an article this morning that basically villified anyone who didn't vaccinate as irresponsible while making contradictory statements about non-vaxed kids being dangerous to vaxed ones. If you believe that the vaccine protects your kid against disease then why should it matter if a small segment of a population chooses not to? There was also a lot of "but these disease will come back if we all stopped".......left me shaking my head because I didn't know that measles, pertussis etc ever 'disappeared'.

But hey.....what do I know right because I don't have a degree in medicine and statistical analysis. PMSL

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : LOL, I tell people quite often.Most...

Thu, 08 Jul 2010 12:03:22 +0000

Author: RinTinTin
Subject: 28691
Posted: 08�July�2010 at 12:03pm

LOL, I tell people quite often.
Most of them quickly break eye contact and mumble something about it being "your choice". It's quite obvious they're uncomfortable with my "choice" though. LOL

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : queenb wrote: Our families...

Thu, 08 Jul 2010 10:32:12 +0000

Author: mumtooboys
Subject: 28691
Posted: 08�July�2010 at 10:32am

queenb wrote:

Our families don't know she isn't vaxxd, well no one has asked, so like most of you, easier to keep mum on the subject

What I find interesting is that when you post that you don't vax on internet forums there is all this moral outrage and the "I wouldn't let your unvaxed child play with my vaxed one" BUT how many people IRL actually know each others vaccination status? I have a friend who knows that A isn't up-to-date on his vaxes because we've discussed it in-depth as she was on the fence about her DD's 15 month ones as well and another who knows that we aren't up-to-date and are still happily hanging out with her vaxed ones, but I am pretty sure that everyone else we know just ASSUMES that he is done. LOL

We have told MIL, but that was only because she was here from the UK at the time when I was just starting my research into vaccines and she didn't seem all that bothered tbh which was nice. I am sure I have mentioned it to my mother, but she doesn't seem to have an opinion one way or the other about it either. Generally speaking though it's not something we tend to bring up in conversation because it's not something I want to be lectured about IYKWIM?

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : I second the well adjusted babies...

Tue, 06 Jul 2010 19:54:40 +0000

Author: skp
Subject: 28691
Posted: 06�July�2010 at 7:54pm

I second the well adjusted babies book, it was fantastic!

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : wow haven't been on OB for...

Tue, 06 Jul 2010 01:16:42 +0000

Author: queenb
Subject: 28691
Posted: 06�July�2010 at 1:16am

wow haven't been on OB for over a year! Great to see this thread. Missymoo is 15mths old, still BFd and non-vaxxd Was having some doubting moments due to 15mth vaxx due, but thankfully after reading all 11 pages (!) and re-looking at the research and info, I'm happy with our decision.

DD has had 2 colds, one at the mo, first time with a cough, and that's it. I have given her a cough elixir (weleda), and it has worked well. Never had pamol, and hope to keep it that way!

Our families don't know she isn't vaxxd, well no one has asked, so like most of you, easier to keep mum on the subject

We've only taking DD to the docs once @ 6weeks to get her check up. So really strange to us when we hear of our friends taking their littlies to the docs for the umpteenth time, for things that a trip to the local naturopath can fix.

Must say, we aren't hemp wearing, tree hugging hippies Just informed parents who love our DD and want to give her the best start in life possible.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : found it...

Mon, 05 Jul 2010 22:11:45 +0000

Author: RinTinTin
Subject: 28691
Posted: 05�July�2010 at 10:11pm

found it...

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : If you clicked on the groups bit...

Mon, 05 Jul 2010 18:34:04 +0000

Author: cuppatea
Subject: 28691
Posted: 05�July�2010 at 6:34pm

If you clicked on the groups bit on facebook it tells you which groups you belong to and which you have been invited to and you can accept the invite from there

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : sorry 3rd post in a row but I...

Mon, 05 Jul 2010 17:05:47 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 05�July�2010 at 5:05pm

sorry 3rd post in a row but I think you've been invited? Should be a request on your fb page, ummm, requests are usually on the right hand side of home page?

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Sorry that probably didn't...

Mon, 05 Jul 2010 17:03:48 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 05�July�2010 at 5:03pm

Sorry that probably didn't help. I don't have you on my friends list or your email to invite you if Karen hasn't already? PM me your address and I'll do it?

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Walk through the back of the closet,...

Mon, 05 Jul 2010 17:01:46 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 05�July�2010 at 5:01pm

Walk through the back of the closet, slide down the bat pole, say the magic word and you're there!

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Where did my invite go?I dunno...

Mon, 05 Jul 2010 16:36:01 +0000

Author: RinTinTin
Subject: 28691
Posted: 05�July�2010 at 4:36pm

Where did my invite go?
I dunno how to find my way in there?

Is it a super secret squirrel one?

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Oh I'd have to go find out...

Mon, 05 Jul 2010 16:33:22 +0000

Author: RinTinTin
Subject: 28691
Posted: 05�July�2010 at 4:33pm

Oh I'd have to go find out about what the actual dosages are supposed to be for the Vit.C.

Haha, dodged a bullet at the doctors today. Escaped without an ear-bashing

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Babe, Mum2Mac....you're invited!...

Mon, 05 Jul 2010 16:09:34 +0000

Author: Emmecat
Subject: 28691
Posted: 05�July�2010 at 4:09pm

Babe, Mum2Mac....you're invited! Skp you wanna join us hippies?

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Just Lurking..but there is a FANTASTIC...

Mon, 05 Jul 2010 15:53:21 +0000

Author: Happy lady
Subject: 28691
Posted: 05�July�2010 at 3:53pm

Just Lurking..but there is a FANTASTIC book called Well Adjusted babies.... it has a really good section on Vaccination, and the risks etc....
I have not yet had my baby, but really helped me and DH make a decision about vaccination as everyone around us is pro vax...
It talked a lot about the ingredients that vaccinations contain and after reading that, we were shocked to see how many toxic and harmful ingredients were happliy administered to children....

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : High I'm sure I have read...

Mon, 05 Jul 2010 15:16:48 +0000

Author: skp
Subject: 28691
Posted: 05�July�2010 at 3:16pm

High I'm sure I have read like 10,000 + mg per day - bowel tolerance.
Its a lot and there is a strategic way of dosing for it, not sure if you would find something on good old Dr google about Vit C and whooping cough?

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Mum2Mac wrote:Pertussis is...

Mon, 05 Jul 2010 15:04:24 +0000

Author: mumtooboys
Subject: 28691
Posted: 05�July�2010 at 3:04pm

Mum2Mac wrote:

Pertussis is Whooping Cough right?

Don't high dosages of Vit C fix this? And/or lessen the cough itself and shorten the time it hangs around for?

Does it............what's high? Wish I had known that when I had it 2 years ago, well pretty sure I had it anyway. *sigh*

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Yeah if you can reduce the symptoms,...

Mon, 05 Jul 2010 14:12:58 +0000

Author: RinTinTin
Subject: 28691
Posted: 05�July�2010 at 2:12pm

Yeah if you can reduce the symptoms, make them comfortable and isolate them, why dose them up on drugs and break down their immune system even more.

Cause it's "easy" I guess.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Yep pertussis is Whooping cough....

Mon, 05 Jul 2010 12:58:39 +0000

Author: cuppatea
Subject: 28691
Posted: 05�July�2010 at 12:58pm

Yep pertussis is Whooping cough. Yep but I read somewhere that if your kid gets it they try to prescribe antibiotics, not cos it helps your kid at all but because it makes them less infectious to others. Why not just isolate them instead of giving them an unnecessary drug?

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Pertussis is Whooping Cough right?Don't...

Mon, 05 Jul 2010 12:55:09 +0000

Author: RinTinTin
Subject: 28691
Posted: 05�July�2010 at 12:55pm

Pertussis is Whooping Cough right?

Don't high dosages of Vit C fix this? And/or lessen the cough itself and shorten the time it hangs around for?

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Newlywed asked the reasons for...

Mon, 05 Jul 2010 11:48:03 +0000

Author: Babe
Subject: 28691
Posted: 05�July�2010 at 11:48am

Newlywed asked the reasons for not vaxing so here are my rweaeasons even though they aren't really as knowledgable and fancy as everyone elses lol ok so we didn't vax coz
a. my family wasn't into it so by default I'm not into it,
b. I'm prone to seizures and Jake had them as a baby so my mum was warned not to vax me as an infant coz it could set off full-on epilepsy and I just decided I wouldn't be taking that risk with Jake even though the docs said the vaccines had changed and he'd be fine,
c. I hate needles lol,
d. I think babies are FAR too young to get vaccinations and
e. I don't think they really work.

TBH I haven't done a huge amount of research mostly because I've had other stuff to deal with and I was certain enough of how I felt and what I did know about the whole thing that I knew my decision wasn't going to change.
As for general health - I'm on the autistic spectrum and have food allergies, and Jake has lactose intolerances and food allergies. The food allergies are genetic.
I've had rubella which left me with antibodies (yay for that coz its peace of mind when having babies!), meningitis, and the measles plus a few more and Jakes had meningitis twice plus suspected measles. We're both prone to ear and chest infections but again theres a family link. Jakes immune system is compromised due to the stress and the circumstances surrounding his birth and mine is compromised due to severe trauma but we keep on top of it with a healthy lifestyle and natural remedies.

Hey Karen can you invote me to the FB page? Now my life is nice and calm I actually want to get some fully hard evidence to back me up haha not that I need it coz my PN and doc are too scared of me to say anything

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : yeah I got a flyer about a year...

Mon, 05 Jul 2010 11:00:28 +0000

Author: cuppatea
Subject: 28691
Posted: 05�July�2010 at 11:00am

yeah I got a flyer about a year ago from the cdhb, that said it was 80% effective if children are given all three jabs then it said they needed 95% for herd immunity, so how would that ever work? Even if 100% were vaccinated, it would only work on 80% so still 15% off what they need for herd immunity, madness. Of course apart from the stats, the rest of the flier was scaremongering about what happens if your child catches whooping cough, which really annoys me. Government material should be impartial, it should be giving parents the information they need to make a sensible informed decision but it's not.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : mumtooboys wrote:Pertussis...

Mon, 05 Jul 2010 10:54:19 +0000

Author: kellie
Subject: 28691
Posted: 05�July�2010 at 10:54am

mumtooboys wrote:

Pertussis is one of those weird vaxes because we get told how effective it is but in my research I have found it to be the LEAST effective of all the ones on the schedule.

Then there is
this, basically it says that the pertussis bacteria has mutated thus lessening the effects of any vaccination given.....but of course it blames the non-vaxing parents for the mutation.

Pertussis probally is the least effective. I think the vax is only about 70% effective, and it is mostly spread by adults and older siblings to babies. The vaccine stops being promoted to people after the age of 12. Thats why when people blame all the 'unvaccinated babies' for spreading pertussis it upsets me. Also it wears off after about 4 years.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Oh good, was feeling like "Leftout...

Sun, 04 Jul 2010 21:27:02 +0000

Author: RinTinTin
Subject: 28691
Posted: 04�July�2010 at 9:27pm

Oh good, was feeling like "Leftout Larry Loser!"

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Mum2Mac wrote:FB? Did I miss...

Sun, 04 Jul 2010 20:28:40 +0000

Author: mumtooboys
Subject: 28691
Posted: 04�July�2010 at 8:28pm

Mum2Mac wrote:

FB?
Did I miss something?

There is a super secret FaceBook group that Emmecat has set up....if you want the details PM her.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : FB?Did I miss something?

Sun, 04 Jul 2010 19:18:30 +0000

Author: RinTinTin
Subject: 28691
Posted: 04�July�2010 at 7:18pm

FB?
Did I miss something?

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : lol you guys have been busy pondering...

Sun, 04 Jul 2010 17:12:52 +0000

Author: Emmecat
Subject: 28691
Posted: 04�July�2010 at 5:12pm

lol you guys have been busy pondering Lifes Big Wuestions while I've been out gettin my weekly dose of Vitamin D I'll read those links though- look interesting!

See ya on FB

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : But it's 'easy'...

Sun, 04 Jul 2010 16:38:24 +0000

Author: mumtooboys
Subject: 28691
Posted: 04�July�2010 at 4:38pm

But it's 'easy' to blame an unvaxed child as the source of an outbreak because then no one has to admit that the vaccine that they have been saying is 100% effective ISN'T.

Something else that I've often wondered is this:

If I get the MMR in America does it 'protect' me from measles if I say visit Africa or Switzerland where they might vaccinate for a different strain? My 'logic' says that if Switzerland vaxes against one strain and Africa another and NZ another and the Americans yet another....well unless we are going to stop international travel there will ALWAYS be outbreaks of measles/mumps/rubella because if you travel to those countries you are 'at risk' of contracting a different strain of measles and taking it home with you. Or is that me oversimplifying the issue a bit?

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : two_boys wrote:This website...

Sun, 04 Jul 2010 16:09:29 +0000

Author: RinTinTin
Subject: 28691
Posted: 04�July�2010 at 4:09pm

two_boys wrote:

This website has a link to the manufacturers insert, and an explanation of what some of the ingredients are(The link is in the text). I'm not sure that this is the same MMR vaccine that is used in NZ though but will find that out.
It says there is no preservative in this one, they do use chick, bovine and human fetal tissue though along with some other suspect ingredients (this is all in the first section of the manufacturers insert). The manufacturer also has listed, risks, precautions and contraindications and a list at the bottom of it's sources.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/224923/the_mmr_vaccine_what_the_manufacturers.html?cat=71

mr 18 months is on my lap so will come back later.

I also find it interesting reading this particular piece

"....MMR Vaccine Effectiveness
The last important bit of information under this section of the MMR vaccine package insert is this sentence: "As for any vaccine, vaccination with M-M-R-II may not result in protection in 100% of vaccines."

There is ample documentation of MMR vaccine failure, specifically major outbreaks among highly-vaccinated populations. Blame for the outbreaks is usually placed on the unvaccinated portion of the population, however, the largest percentages of those who become ill are usually the ones who are current on their vaccines. Click here to read a long list of peer-reviewed studies and their summaries concerning this issue. "

Yep....so tell me again why I should vaccinate?

LOL

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Rubella vaccine was developed...

Sun, 04 Jul 2010 14:45:39 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 04�July�2010 at 2:45pm

Rubella vaccine was developed from babies that were aborted after the mothers became infected with rubella. You can trace each strain of vaccine to a specific child.

Have a child destroying the place so will have to hunt for the source article later but the info remains the same:

The human cell lines used in Rubella vaccine manufacture were obtained in the '60s from aborted fetuses. Human cell line WI-38 was obtained from the lung of an aborted three- month-old female fetus.[4] Another cell line used is MRC-5, obtained from the lung of a 14-week-old male aborted fetus in 1966.[5] Most other vaccines
produced do not require human cell lines. Only viral vaccines require cells within which the virus will reproduce. Many viral vaccines (e.g. Polio, Mumps) can use chicken embryos or monkey kidney cell lines. Bacterial vaccines (e.g. Diphtheria, Tetanus) require the cultivation of the bacteria in a culture medium only.

Interestingly, while I was hunting for the original article instead of a copy of a copy, I found a study that mentions a link between paracetemol use post MMR and a link with autism as exisitng? I only looked briefly though as am hurrying... here:

http://aut.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/12/3/293

is that what it says or did I read it wrong in my haste?

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : No I realise that know, I was...

Sun, 04 Jul 2010 14:20:32 +0000

Author: cuppatea
Subject: 28691
Posted: 04�July�2010 at 2:20pm

No I realise that know, I was getting confused between what I read on the immune website which said only 1 and your post.

Yeah I just think if you are prolife then you don't care how long ago the abortions were from. Just cos it was in the 60s doens't make it ok as far as I'm concerned. I am suprised the vatican have said they are ok with it.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : neither, hence why I said I wasn't...

Sun, 04 Jul 2010 13:34:11 +0000

Author: freckle
Subject: 28691
Posted: 04�July�2010 at 1:34pm

neither, hence why I said I wasn't making a judgement on it... I just thought it was a little misleading what you initially said... It could have been thought that fetal mater is regularly obtained from abortions for vaccines which is clearly not the case. Also the info I provided above says " legal abortions in the 1960's" so it's not saying 1 abortion either

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Ok not wanting to get into a debate...

Sun, 04 Jul 2010 13:27:41 +0000

Author: cuppatea
Subject: 28691
Posted: 04�July�2010 at 1:27pm

Ok not wanting to get into a debate about this, but this is from a catholic site and it clearly states that far more than 1 baby was used.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/medical_ethics/me0044.html

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : I am not making any judgement...

Sun, 04 Jul 2010 13:14:40 +0000

Author: freckle
Subject: 28691
Posted: 04�July�2010 at 1:14pm

I am not making any judgement I just thought this relevant... info from www.about.com...

Question: Do Vaccines Contain Aborted Fetal Tissue?

Answer: Vaccines contain no aborted fetal tissue.
But there's more to the story.

Some vaccines, including the Mumps Measles Rubella (MMR) vaccine, contain killed viruses. The viruses are cultured in aborted fetal tissue. Regarding the MMR vaccine, the CDC states:

The rubella vaccine virus is cultured in human cell-line cultures, and some of these cell lines originated from aborted fetal tissue, obtained from legal abortions in the 1960's. No new fetal tissue is needed to produce cell lines to make these vaccines, now or in the future. Fetal tissue is not used to produce vaccines; cell lines generated from a single fetal tissue source are used; vaccine manufacturers obtain human cell lines from FDA-certified cell banks. After processing, very little, if any, of that tissue remains in the vaccine.
So if there is any tiny residual cellular material in a vaccine, it is from cell lines. Although those cell lines originated in aborted fetal tissue decades ago, there is no aborted fetal tissue itself in the vaccine.
For those who are still uncomfortable with this revelation, it might be helpful to know that the Vatican has actually taken a stand on the issue. The Vatican's Pontifical Academy for Life issued a statement in 2005 saying that it is wrong to make vaccines using aborted fetal tissue and that such practices should no longer be employed, however, it is acceptable to use vaccines developed from abortions that were carried out decades ago, because immunizations play a vital role in protecting life by preventing illness and death.

In part, when referring to concerns over the production of vaccines, the academy states: "...the burden of this important battle cannot and must not fall on innocent children and on the health situation of the population - especially with regard to pregnant women."

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : some more on the ingredients ...

Sun, 04 Jul 2010 13:12:20 +0000

Author: cuppatea
Subject: 28691
Posted: 04�July�2010 at 1:12pm

some more on the ingredients

http://www.immune.org.nz/?T=920#vc1

This is the nz website that promotes vaccination, the government website. You can access the parent/caregiver section as well as reading everything that is available to healthproviders, just select healthprovider there is no password or anything needed It Includes rebuttals to the information on the IAS website (the biggest nz anti vaccination website, their site is currently being redone but is normally a good place for information) as well as lots of other info. Above is the address of the page on the government site with information for health providers on the ingredients contained in the vaccines, "human derived products" is at the bottom.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Exactly, I don't agree with...

Sun, 04 Jul 2010 13:03:02 +0000

Author: cuppatea
Subject: 28691
Posted: 04�July�2010 at 1:03pm

Exactly, I don't agree with abortion anyway, but I think at least if it is going to happen then the babies should be treated with some respect and at least buried or cremated, sadly though they end up as medical waste or used in experiments/development on medicines. The other sad thing is so many people are totally unaware, I wonder how many parents would want to use the vaccines if they knew how they were produced, especially when it flies in the face of many peoples religious views as well (catholics for example) I'm atheist but I still think life starts when the sperm enters the egg, cos lets face it if you don't abort you have a baby, is pretty clear cut to me.
The other thing that seems worse to me too, although as I said I don't agree with abortion at any stage anyway, is that they have to use foetuses over 12 weeks gestation and with no genetic defects, so they would have been totally healthy little kids

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : two_boys wrote:This website...

Sun, 04 Jul 2010 12:53:41 +0000

Author: RinTinTin
Subject: 28691
Posted: 04�July�2010 at 12:53pm

*vomit, gag, vomit*

I can't get over the using human fetal tissue thing. THAT in itself was enough to put me off vaccinating.
It's so wrong on every moral level in my eyes I just can't even stomach the thought.

Poor little aborted foetus's A person's a person, no matter how small.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : This website has a link to the...

Sun, 04 Jul 2010 09:49:44 +0000

Author: cuppatea
Subject: 28691
Posted: 04�July�2010 at 9:49am

This website has a link to the manufacturers insert, and an explanation of what some of the ingredients are(The link is in the text). I'm not sure that this is the same MMR vaccine that is used in NZ though but will find that out.
It says there is no preservative in this one, they do use chick, bovine and human fetal tissue though along with some other suspect ingredients (this is all in the first section of the manufacturers insert). The manufacturer also has listed, risks, precautions and contraindications and a list at the bottom of it's sources.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/224923/the_mmr_vaccine_what_the_manufacturers.html?cat=71

mr 18 months is on my lap so will come back later.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Your friend may have had no immunity...

Sun, 04 Jul 2010 08:39:21 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 04�July�2010 at 8:39am

Your friend may have had no immunity even if she HAD been vaccinated! Vaccine "protection" fades over time.

As said above, I had rubella, then got rubella about 5 or 6 years ago now? Maybe longer, time flies, anyway I digress, then I assumed I would have immunity especially having had the disease, but when I got preg they checked and no immunity (so I avoided people for a trimester).

So even if your friend had been a "good girl" and got her vaccines during childhood, she may still have had to pay $180 per shot. Or is it like a subway card? 3 shots entitle you to the 1 cheap booster? Because even if you don't pay as a kid the government pays for you soooo... mmm that's A LOT of money! (That $180 could be subsidised too?)

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Hmmmm Mucky tiger- you tell me...

Sun, 04 Jul 2010 08:04:11 +0000

Author: Emmecat
Subject: 28691
Posted: 04�July�2010 at 8:04am

Hmmmm Mucky tiger- you tell me someone somewhere along the line isn't making mega bucks for vaxxing...your friends case in point.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : hey just reading through the thread....

Sun, 04 Jul 2010 00:53:18 +0000

Author: Mucky_Tiger
Subject: 28691
Posted: 04�July�2010 at 12:53am

hey just reading through the thread.

very interesting topic. when we have kids i dont want to vaccinate as i always reacted as a child and have allergies to dairy and citrus and react to the egg based vaccines (but arent allergic to eggs)

ANYWAYS ON PAGE 2...
in regard to uni and vax status. i do occupational thereapy and we have to know our status, and if we chose to not vaccinate it doesnt stop us but it can affect the clinical placements, as they might not put us in hospitals or pediatric settings.
in my friends case she was never vaccinated and she chose to do Hep B for her safety and OMFG it cost her $180 per shot and theres 3 and its only that much cos she was 20 and had no immunity otherwise it only would have been $20 for a booster shot (or something to that effect)

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Gosh - I had no idea they contained...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 22:39:43 +0000

Author: anon
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 10:39pm

Gosh - I had no idea they contained those things. There is a theory that high amounts of mercury can link to Autism but it's not yet proven.

Where can I get more information about this stuff?

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Colour therapy http://www.colo...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 19:24:00 +0000

Author: RinTinTin
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 7:24pm

Colour therapy

http://www.colourtherapy.co.nz/

Scientifically proven, no heebee jeebee stuff.

My hat goes off to you vegetarian girls. I just can't do it. I love meat too much.

ETA: You don't have to buy the machines (cause they're expensive ). You can go to the clinic if you live close by and/or you can hire the machines to use.

Edited by Mum2Mac

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Don't waste it, a snail is...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 18:12:18 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 6:12pm

Don't waste it, a snail is starving so you can eat that!

Hehehe ahhh I wish i had stayed vege past my teenage phase but I just couldnt give up bacon. Makes me a massive hypocrite in so many other ways, but I love it, what can I say!

Still, as my friend always tells me, the vege pizza is always the first to go so somethings right there! (and my vege shephard pie is one of my favs)

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : kmasonnz wrote:Vegetarians...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 18:07:25 +0000

Author: Emmecat
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 6:07pm

kmasonnz wrote:

Vegetarians are people who eat vegans right?

LMAO I nearly spat out my silverbeet just then

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Gosh I'm enjoying my tofu...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 18:06:35 +0000

Author: Emmecat
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 6:06pm

Gosh I'm enjoying my tofu stir fry tonight

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Vegetarians are people who eat...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 18:06:16 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 6:06pm

Vegetarians are people who eat vegans right?

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Bloody hippies. You all have a...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 18:03:35 +0000

Author: Emmecat
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 6:03pm

Bloody hippies. You all have a lot to answer for....you're as bad as those vegetarians

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Yeah i reckon hippy! (so do I!)...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 18:00:27 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 6:00pm

Yeah i reckon hippy! (so do I!)

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Mum2Mac wrote:Oh and I also...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 17:54:49 +0000

Author: Emmecat
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 5:54pm

Mum2Mac wrote:

Oh and I also use alternative therapies

Hippy lol

I need to get some more ideas from ya!

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Newlywed - ingredients was a huge...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 16:20:01 +0000

Author: RinTinTin
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 4:20pm

Newlywed - ingredients was a huge factor in why I didn't want to vax.

Ingredients such as Ethylene Glycol (better known as anti-freeze...yes, the stuff you put in your car radiator ), formaldahyde, mercury. Things that we already know that on their own are poisonous and deadly.

Other reasons for me linger around the idea of the whole "schedule" and the big push and knowing that doctors and the government get paid for vaccinations just makes me a dubious about it all.

Also, looking at the countries records over the last 100 years or so, it is evident that the diseases we vaccinate against were tapering off on their own THEN they introduced vaccinations. Why vaccinate against something that is disappearing on it's own?

And also, as is evident in animals, viruses morph. If you irradicate one type, another will only come in to replace it. Parvo-virus in animals is a real "case and point" for me. And Meningecoccal in humans is the other "case and point". We vaccinated back in the mid 80's (I think) for Meningitis A, so now thats "gone" guess what we're vaccinating against now, Meningitis B. So once thats gone...who wants to guess what'll come next?

It's all a vicious cycle.

Oh and I also use alternative therapies

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Thanks for your reasons. Just...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 15:59:49 +0000

Author: anon
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 3:59pm

Thanks for your reasons. Just wondered what is in the ingredients that puts you off so much?

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : It is of far greater concern to...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 14:49:26 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 2:49pm

It is of far greater concern to me that the ingredients are suspect to say the least, and the immune bipass as said before by a few of you, and the long term implications rather than the autism link. In saying that, I do believe there is a correlation there but that was never my sole or even main reason for choosing non-vax.

& I agree mumtooboys, if you have vaccinated your child would you or your doctor make the connection that an illness is measles? & on the flip, is every rash a non-vax child gets measles? I know when I got rubella it took 3 doctors before someone tested me. I was told I was having an allergic reaction to washing powder! Also, and another reason I suspect the reporting process, rubella is a notifiable disease, and yet for 3 years after I got rubella it showed no cases? Even though I had lab results saying that was what i had! Go figure!

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : I know and it infuriates me...for...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 14:25:59 +0000

Author: mumtooboys
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 2:25pm

I know and it infuriates me...for US whether MMR might be a trigger for some children never really factored into my questioning vaccines. But any time someone mentions MMR people automatically start talking about Wakefield and autism and it drives me nuts. I like to flip that one on it's head sometimes by asking them where the proof is that vaccines are safe, not just MMR but any vaccine...that usually stumps people for some reason.

I have a theory about measles actually and that theory is that it is actually a lot more prevalent than people think it is but because it is so innocuous most kids never see a Dr or if they do it gets misdiagnosed as a viral rash. I read an article from a US Dr who said unequivocally that he had NEVER seen a case of measles but it left me scratching my head. Now I suppose he could genuinely never have seen a case but I am wondering if in fact it is more a case of Drs not knowing WHAT to look for anymore because they think MMR prevents transmission of measles cases , and thus a kid who has had their requisite number of jabs for it can't get it, and as such they are being misdiagnosed or not diagnosed at all?

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Yip. And the legal implications...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 14:12:20 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 2:12pm

Yip. And the legal implications of an admission that government sponsored vaccination caused side effects and or death. That's why there have been no long term studies on vaccination side effects.

If it was found that the increase in rates of cancer was linked to a vaccine distributed in, say 1960, then there would be law suits flying & as a lawyer I know just how appealing it would be to sue the bottomless pit of government! Why would you commission research in an area that may (or may not, but may) see you sued for billions?

Unfortunately the autism link and revelations regarding the lancet will make it impossible to get any research done for probably at least the next decade. Afterall, it seems from comments I have read pro-vaxers think we all made our decision based on that study, and that we should all be ashamed for being gullible. There also seems to be an overall feeling that the link has been unequivocably disproven now which isn't true. Because of that research into the other impact issues of vaccination will be poohpooh'ed as conspiracy theory. Sad really.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : K, This is the issue I have with...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 14:03:11 +0000

Author: mumtooboys
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 2:03pm

K,

This is the issue I have with stats and how people come up with them. LOL As you rightly pointed out if there was a massive epidemic that they based that figure on, then it abated but the disease kept cropping up periodically, then how can the death rate stay the same?

Governments don't care about whether environmental factors might play a role in incidences of certain diseases because then they'd have to acknowledge that maybe vaccination isn't preventing as much disease as they say/think it does?

Basically I told the doc when asked about A having not had his 15 month jabs and it being a conscious decision on our part that I am just not convinced that they work. I'm not convinced that they don't either...in short I am just plain old confused. hehehehehehehe I also have an issue with the fact that they do bypass all the bodies natural defences....something I never really thought about or understood before I started looking into vaccine nearly 2 years ago.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Oh and one other statistical manipulation...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 13:37:13 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 1:37pm

Oh and one other statistical manipulation that bothers me is the length of time used to work out a mortality rate or rate of disease is most often never listed.

So a publication could say 1 in 2000 die of Kermit the frog disease. Yet nobody could have died in the last 5 years or a new treatment option could be discovered, but 6 years ago there was a massive epidemic where 20 people in an elderly community contracted the disease and died, hence they come up with 1 in 2000. I've found the only solution to gettiing through the bias is to find the actual data and do my own damn maths!

& mumtooboys - i agree pertussis does appear to be the least effective. I just couldn't remember the term (or the reasoning) behind graphs that mirror spikes and troughs at the same time every year. Too me if regardless the number of cases or the coverage of vaccine, if in May every year there is a spike in the cases there must surely be an environmental or social factor that is impacting on the infection rates?

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Yes Emmecat i agree I get naturally...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 13:27:49 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 1:27pm

Yes Emmecat i agree I get naturally suspicious of people/companies that have substantial financial gain in one point of view when the independent studies are markedly absent.

There is also a huge financial advantage to governments in vaccination. Without going into too much detail suffice to say company pays tax IYKWIM.

Not that I think Governments are necessarily pushing unneeded meds with a conscious though. Perhaps they are a little naive about the lobbying groups that provide ministries with research however. The government method of statistical analysis bothers me as well. The reporting of notified cases without correcting those numbers when cases are disproven skews results. i.e. It could be said there are 200 cases of measles notified, but 100 of those tested false, and 50 are still to be tested, they still work with the original 200 notified number in a lot of publications. Combine that with a media hype/scare and of course the notification number increases as worried parents/doctors get tests done on flus etc.

AND (my personal button) the media and it's bollocks reporting methods and lack of fact checking causes more problems for both sides of the spectrum. An article in a paper quotes a number from a website without checking the primary source, the next thing that article becomes a source on it's own & is quoted as evidence in future articles and papers.

Crikey. That was a rant!

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Pertussis is one of those weird...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 13:25:33 +0000

Author: mumtooboys
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 1:25pm

Pertussis is one of those weird vaxes because we get told how effective it is but in my research I have found it to be the LEAST effective of all the ones on the schedule.

Then there is
this, basically it says that the pertussis bacteria has mutated thus lessening the effects of any vaccination given.....but of course it blames the non-vaxing parents for the mutation.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Actually K your conspiracy theory...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 12:33:22 +0000

Author: Emmecat
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 12:33pm

Actually K your conspiracy theory (lol )remind me of *another* reason I don't vax....you can't tell me that heaps of people in these major drug companies aren't making *millions* by keeping us 'plebs' scared of losing our precious babies....and of course no Drs or clinics or hospitals are reliant on financial support or commission from these same companies are they? Hmmm

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Having an interesting read of...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 09:04:58 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 9:04am

Having an interesting read of the pertussis report from ESR (12-25 June 2010), (you know one of those namby pamby conspiracy docs I get my info from haha)... anyway, was interested to see that once again the majority of cases (52%) were in the vacc schedule or not eligible to be vacc. To clarify, 5 cases were under 6 weeks, 48% were non-vacc, the rest were people vaccinated, and ... oh look I'll just paste! :D

"Nineteen cases had received one dose of vaccine, six cases had received two doses of vaccine, 24 cases had received three doses of vaccine, eight cases had received four doses, and eight cases reported having completed pertussis vaccination. A further 24 cases reported being vaccinated but no dose information was available."

Sorry I got off the point I originally wanted to make. Can someone tell me how/why it can be that year after year the outbreak peaks and troughs almost exactly mirror each other if there isn't some environmental factor playing a role that we should look at? I mean, there are slight differences in the number of cases, & minute differences in timing, but they seem similar. Anyway, to look at the graph to see what I'm talking about here http://www.surv.esr.cri.nz/PDF_surveillance/PertussisRpt/2010/201026PertussisRpt.pdf

page 5.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : OK so the group is set up and...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 08:42:27 +0000

Author: Emmecat
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 8:42am

OK so the group is set up and is private, invite only. Have invited you all plus some random I got mixed up lol hopefully that person doesn't reply You need to be my friend first tho before I can invite you to join

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Ooooh yah what twoboys said as...

Sat, 03 Jul 2010 08:19:32 +0000

Author: Emmecat
Subject: 28691
Posted: 03�July�2010 at 8:19am

Ooooh yah what twoboys said as well lol

there's a couple of vax's like rubella that if my daughter wants before she becomes sexually active then we can discuss it more in depth. The other thing is many of these vaxs only have a couple of years life span, at which point you need to repeat them. Which especially in the case of diseases that are spread through blood contact or sexual transmission such as hep B then whats the point when they're infants? Same with tetenus, you get that anyway if you injure yourself (and you want it) so I don't like the 'just in case' theory. Remember, I'm not debating it...just giving my viewpoint

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Yeah one scientists small sample...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 19:45:15 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 7:45pm

Yeah one scientists small sample and dubious methods were questioned, but they specifically said that does not disprove the link. There has been comparitively very little independent research done on the matter.

one of my issues with MMR is that it is a combination vaccine, and having a boy I would like him to get mumps when he is younger if possible. That sounds crazy I guess, but it can cause fertility issues later in life & a vaccine is absolutely NO GUARANTEE that you will never get the disease. I got everything I was vacc for except polio and diptheria. Measles I got twice. Rubella I got once about 5 years ago, and still don't have immunity! Mumps ruined a ski trip but that was it (although was mighty fun giving my younger brother oranges to watch him squirm).

in the same boat as emmecat, will get into some more detail when I don't have a toddler creating havoc instead of sleeping!

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Yeah I was gonna say that it was...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 19:43:39 +0000

Author: cuppatea
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 7:43pm

Yeah I was gonna say that it was just that that one research paper was discredited, and the guy that did that has been struck of the medical register in Britain but they have not proven MMR is not responsible but also it's not proven that it is. The possible link was not something we used as a deciding factor.

Our reasons for not vaxxing are that I don't like how it bypasses the natural immune system response (vaccines go straight into the blood stream and therefore straight to the brain, rather than coming in through the nose/mouth). I was pretty shocked when I found out what is actually in the vaccines and as someone who is pretty anal about what we eat, what lotions, washing powder etc we use I just couldn't imagine allowing those ingredients to be put into my children. ( Had I of looked into vaccines earlier there are a few I wouldn't have had done to myself). I also do not think the vaccines are even effective in preventing disease, I believe improvements in nutrition and living conditions is what has caused the decrease in childhood diseases not vaccines (scarlett fever has fallen at the same rate and yet there is no vaccine for that). It is not proven that vaccines work and how they work is theory not fact. It is believed that we produce antigens that then fight off the disease if we get exposed to it but it's not proven that that is the case.
There are risks to the vaccines, there are side effects like any other medicine, these often are not explained but if you push for it you can get the info about it from your gp.
Any immunity to disease via vaccination wears off, leaving you exposed as an adult when the consequences of catching a childhood disease is far worse.
And last but not least as this one as far as I'm concerned is enough on it's own to make us not vaccinate, is that they use aborted foetuses when developing vaccines. We are prolife and this is just totally unacceptable to us.

I think that is all of our reasons, will update if I remember more

Edited by two_boys

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Oh and Newlywed- the link wasn't...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 19:15:05 +0000

Author: Emmecat
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 7:15pm

Oh and Newlywed- the link wasn't disproved- it was just that 'scientists' methods were discredited. Deosn't mean the vax is safe IYKWIM

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : kmasonnz wrote:Totally keen...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 19:13:55 +0000

Author: Emmecat
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 7:13pm

kmasonnz wrote:

Totally keen on the fb group idea Emmecat... I'll PM you.

Sweet! Have PM'd you and the other interested parties and set up a group ASAP. Tonight or tomorrow

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Newlywed, firstly good on you...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 19:11:55 +0000

Author: Emmecat
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 7:11pm

Newlywed, firstly good on you for even questioning the vax schedule in the first place, even if you do go ahead with it. You're already ahead of the vast majority lol

I can't speak for the others on here as I'm sure we all have our own reasons, but some of the reasons I don't vax include- but are not limited to- the schedule- I think it's starts far too young.the amount of what we're vaxxing against compared to our generation or our parents. The combination of vaccines and our inability in NZ to pick and chose what we'd like to protect our kids against- I dislike the 'all or nothing' approach we currently have. Dubious preservatives in the vaxs. Other animal based ingrediants in the vaxs that don't support my lifestyle as a vegetarian.

Those are just off the top of my head whilst trying to cook a stir fry and run around after Clodagh with no pants on lol (um her not me!)

With regards to the MMR vax, I don't see it as better or worse than the other vaxs and I'm not anti vax. I'm not overly worried about the autism link, my concerns are more those mentioned above.

Hope that helps

Edited by Emmecat

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Hi I don't want to intrude...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:52:42 +0000

Author: anon
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 6:52pm

Hi I don't want to intrude on this discussion as I have made the decision to vaccinate my baby, but I am wondering about the MMR one and haven't got around to reading more information about it. As far as I know there is no research to suggest that Autism is linked to the MMR vaccine (it kinda got "thrown out") but I wonder if there is a more recent update to that. Nathan is about 7mths away from his next lot of vaccinations, whence the procrastination with researching it.

But I would like to know what led you to your decisions NOT to vaccinate - just really interested to hear your opinions about it as it's true you do tend to hear one side and not the other.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Totally keen on the fb group idea...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:23:37 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 6:23pm

Totally keen on the fb group idea Emmecat... I'll PM you.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : kmasonnz sometimes you have to...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:16:33 +0000

Author: Bizzy
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 6:16pm

kmasonnz sometimes you have to be firm with people and say - look, i made an informed decision and dont think i need to justify myself to your or anyone else. End of discussion.

I dont think you need to be rude, but sometimes you have to be firm! and sometimes no matter how sensible and well informed you are and how nicely you put your point of view across some people are just not going to be willing to listen to you. Its just the way they are.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : It's a hard one, I guess...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:09:36 +0000

Author: cuppatea
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 6:09pm

It's a hard one, I guess I would probably just say that it is informed consent for reason and that you are happy with your informed decision to not consent and I would probably go on to say that I think it's very sad and concerning that so many parents vaccinate their children whilst not be informed at all.
I think it's quite sad that we get hassled so much, I've never hassled anyone over their decision to vaccinate cos I figure if they have done their research and decided to go ahead with them who am I to argue with that?

My oldest has allergies, my youngest doesn't and both had have the odd thing wrong with them, bad coughs, stomach bugs, my oldest had a run of ear infections, but neither have had anything serious and my youngest who is still breastfed pretty much never gets really ill, he always seems to catch whatever the eldest gets but only ever gets it very mild. I intend to at least feed across winter before I stop (he's 18 months now). I was pretty over it a while ago cos he is a bad sleeper too, but over the last month we seemed to have got things going better and he only wakes once or twice a week now and sleeps through the rest of the time. I'm also underweight, but not sure it's related to BFing or not, the Dr didnt' suggest stopping but they also found no other cause for it.

I've never kept mine away from anyone or any groups etc, I figure they could pick something up from a random at the supermarket so theres no point and some of the illnesses I would not be fussed if they got would be good for them to get the natural immunity from it, I would of course keep them isolated if they had them so as not to expose anyone else to the diseases.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : lol Skp- yeah I know what you...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:06:40 +0000

Author: Emmecat
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 6:06pm

lol Skp- yeah I know what you mean but remember we are *slightly* outside the mainstream and some people find that annoying or irresponsible or threatening or whatever. That's why I started the thread for NON VAXXERS not I HATE PEOPLE WHO DON'T VAX THEIR KIDS lol

There's some awesome people on OB and I've made some good friends. Anyone here or IRL who doesn't agree with my parenting is most entitled to their opinion, both voiced and unvoiced as I am to mine. Best thing is to not rise to it, folk are normally scared of what they don't understand IMO.

Kmasonnz- yep Clodagh is still not much of a sleeper under blankets kinda gal but she manages to keep a light bamboo one on her...and we now dress her in a long sleeved cotton onesie with a long sleeved merino top then footed two peice pj's...muhaha at least she won't get cold in that!

Oh and re it being a shame about this being a public forum etc...nothing to stop us having a non vaxxing /AP group on Facebook? We have our own Due in Dec thread on Facebook and its great cos its private. Anyone interested in doing something like that? If so PM me your FB details and I'll set one up

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Sorry to hear that skp. Seems...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 17:29:02 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 5:29pm

Sorry to hear that skp. Seems stuff like that happens a bit on here. I've been fired up a few times over the stupid things people say but I realised the little "x" in the corner is like a magic flyswat that makes the little pests go away!

Even in here we've had a couple of people try and make it yet another debate instead of what we intended, it's a sad side effect of open internet. It's a pity you can't have private forums really so you can chat without that stuff. I mean, I'm happy to debate stuff if I'm in a debating thread, but it sometimes gets tiring when people don't leave you be!

Hope you'll keep checking in on us though!

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Haha I love this thread : ) keep...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 17:14:44 +0000

Author: skp
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 5:14pm

Haha I love this thread : ) keep up the good work ladies. I got an ear bashing from a person on OB about me always being anti vac, so I don't come on here that much anymore. You would think of all the places to openly talk about stuff would be on a forum but apparently not!

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Agree Emmecat - it maybe best...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 16:54:57 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 4:54pm

Agree Emmecat - it maybe best for them but I am finding the bf'ing hard going at the moment too. heaps better since he is finally sleeping mostly through the night and isn't taking night feeds, but it's taxing on your body, and I'm not dealing with preg tiredness as well!! Have dropped down to a size 6 now (was an 8-10 pre pregnancy) and it's a bit concerning. Aston is taking milk drinks during the day in his cup now, so guess that will end with him weaning! He also is getting quite circe de soleil when feeding, he'll spin his body round & I'll end up with feet in my face etc. It's quite bizarre! :)

I also meant to ask you about whether Clodagh was still kicking bed covers off but couldnt find the thread it was originally in - did you find a solution? OT so I will PM you....

& thanks for the advice guys. I was thinking I could go "Oh Sh&t I'd better go do that then" and walk out the door?

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : I actually sat and had a 10 minute...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 16:50:39 +0000

Author: mumtooboys
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 4:50pm

I actually sat and had a 10 minute conversation with a doc the other week about why Alex hadn't had his 15 month jabs......he finally took the hint and told me it sounded like we knew what we were doing. Whether that was just so he could escape or not who knows....but I have to say it is the first time a health professional has actually listened to me and not tried to subtly or not so subtly talk me round.

Of course it all stemmed from the fact that he'd burnt himself and they kept muttering about tetanus. Having said all that though, this is the same Doc who insisted that he had a 3rd degree burn on his right foot that needed skin grafting when it wasn't and doesn't.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : To add to what Emmecat said, people...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 16:29:08 +0000

Author: RinTinTin
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 4:29pm

To add to what Emmecat said, people who choose not to vaccinate generally say things like "We have made an informed choice not to vaccinate" while those who are lazy or irresponsible generally answer with "aw sh!t, I forgot about getting them done" or "Who cares man" or something along those lines

I'm also happy to report that Mac is one of two babies in our due thread who are vaccinated and neither him or the other baby have been sick at all yet. He's the only one from our AN group who isn't vacc'd and also the only one who hasn't been sick.

Mac does however have allergies. He's allergic to dairy and he has Eczema, but we can trace that back through the family. Eczema from my side. Dairy issues from his Dads side.

I can't honestly say I expose Mac to a huge amount but if he was vaccinated I still wouldn't be exposing him to everything. The fact that he's rather sheltered is due to lifestyle circumstances rather than my own worries.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : kmasonnz- you just might need...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 15:46:57 +0000

Author: Emmecat
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 3:46pm

kmasonnz- you just might need to nod and smile and say thanks for your input lol. you could also *try* to believe that anyone giving you an ear bashing is doing it because they are genuinely concerned about your baby which I guess is not a bad thing.... however this approach doesn't usually work for me! I've rarely been given an earful, just had some underhand, ignorant comments sometimes which I either ignore or comment along the same lines as Babe suggested. In my experience parents who don't vaccinate by choice (as opposed to laziness or ignorance) tend to be extremely well read on the subject and constantly monitor new developments in the area.

Good on you for your extended BF efforts too. I'm having a bit of a struggle with this atm, just due to tiredness from being pg I think BUT I *know* its the best thing for Clodagh- esp since we have decided not to vaccinate.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Hi millymollymandy. I agree with...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 14:37:57 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 2:37pm

Hi millymollymandy. I agree with the theory of an uncompromised immature immune system fighting disease better. But I also think that as a parent of a non-vacc child I probably take a lot of precautions that help prevent disease. Aston hasn't had any illness either, but then I always ask how the other children are before we go on play dates, and ask when they have been vaccinated so I don't have him around children that have just had their vaccines & (although certainly not limited to non-vacc parents) I am very diet conscious (sorry I can't spell today so best guess works) and make sure he has good levels of fruit veg etc.

I also breast fed longer for a couple of reasons, but a big one was to help his immunity.

As noted above by Linda, some people who vacc & formula feed (I don't mean to indicate the two are or aren't mutually exclusive) thave no immune issues with their children, but I personally notice that friends with vacc babies seem to be constantly at the doctors.

In saying that, Aston has just turned a year, so there is plenty time yet for him to get the usual dose of lurgies.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Hi all, we haven't vacinated...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 14:27:33 +0000

Author: millymollymandy
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 2:27pm

Hi all, we haven't vacinated as we couldn't agree both of us have done our reading and neither could convince the other. I would like to vacinate for whopping cough and measles and am frustrated that you can't selectively vacinate.

Interesting though at 11 months we haven't had a single cold, no allegies and two teeth with no problems. Durin the same period I have had 3 colds myself. DH feels this is linked to immune system not being compromised by vacination (is a scientist so has some background), I'm not sure.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : kmasonnz wrote:I am trying...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 13:17:50 +0000

Author: RinTinTin
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 1:17pm

kmasonnz wrote:

I am trying REALLY hard not to respond in a nasty way. So do any of you have any tips or phrases to make this person back off?

A good one is:
We've made an informed choice to raise our child slightly differently to that which society deems as normal. I'd LOVE to tell you all about it if you're interested!

People either stop and listen or back right off.
Win-win!

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : omg and here I was thinking Obamas...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 12:38:55 +0000

Author: Babe
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 12:38pm

omg and here I was thinking Obamas head opened up to show the little man sitting at the controls... oh hang on thats only when I've had a session and am a little high while doing weird and hippy things with my fellow commune peops...

A couple of months ago I ran facefirst into someone banging on about how non-vaxers are irresponsible and how our kids are only safe coz of all the wonderful and responsible pro-vaxers out there I just responded in a nasty way so can't actually help but can def sympathise xx

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : OH MY GOD I just posted a massive...

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 12:32:46 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 02�July�2010 at 12:32pm

OH MY GOD I just posted a massive message and it didn't work just vanished! SIGH!!!!

Basically the jist was v v zealous pro-vacc anti-choice giving me a hard time. I tried ignoring, tried responding, tried the nod & smile but still I get an ear bashing.

Assumption is a) I am a careless mother for not vaccinating, b) I am an idiot who gleans info from wiki, hasn't heard of primary sources & can't search google without believing obama is an alien when I stumble upon conspiracy sites, and c) I must be some kind of left-wing liberal hippy commune living dope smoker to be non-vacc.

I am trying REALLY hard not to respond in a nasty way. So do any of you have any tips or phrases to make this person back off?

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : linda not sure if you will read...

Thu, 24 Jun 2010 22:12:58 +0000

Author: Bizzy
Subject: 28691
Posted: 24�June�2010 at 10:12pm

linda not sure if you will read this but wanted to know about this story you mentioned... was it online? HDN is more about the bodies failure to clot blood as opposed to causing clotting.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Emmecat wrote: BTW- have any...

Thu, 24 Jun 2010 12:03:02 +0000

Author: mumtooboys
Subject: 28691
Posted: 24�June�2010 at 12:03pm

Emmecat wrote:

BTW- have any of you guys been to the ESR website? I think it was there I saw it the other day.... lots of info on vaccines available in NZ seperately in case you're interested. And here I was thinking we HAD to take what was being offered!

Thanks for the heads up....am going there now. LOL

Alex has injured himself quite badly last week and they keep harping on about him having a tetanus shot.......good thing I knew that he should still be covered from the ones he got as a baby before we stopped vaxing.....not that they get a tetanus 'booster' at 15 months anyway. Then had a 10 minute convo with the Dr the other day when we went for a dressing change about why we haven't given him his 15 months ones yet...on a 'good' note, he seemed to think I knew what I was talking about and escaped without mentioning it again. hehehehehehehe

Edited by mumtooboys

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : We got the vit k injection as...

Wed, 23 Jun 2010 23:50:26 +0000

Author: kellie
Subject: 28691
Posted: 23�June�2010 at 11:50pm

We got the vit k injection as we had a traumatic birth...

Sirius is still not vaccinated. We will probally wait another year or two as per doctors orders to see if we will start them up again.

All in all he is very healthy. He has been exposed to chickenpox a few times and hasn't caught it yet either.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Yep, still very happy with our...

Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:24:34 +0000

Author: skp
Subject: 28691
Posted: 23�June�2010 at 9:24pm

Yep, still very happy with our non vac choices and lifestyle. DD hasn't had as much as a cold or flu in her short little life, no skin issues, rashes, allergies, and so on. Also has never had a fever or teething issues - maybe we are just very lucky to have a good kid!

Not going to vacc at all at this stage

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : update (onehanded) - Tys not vaxed...

Wed, 23 Jun 2010 19:57:21 +0000

Author: Babe
Subject: 28691
Posted: 23�June�2010 at 7:57pm

update (onehanded) - Tys not vaxed but Jake stepped on an old rusty nail from our old chicken coop end of last year, it fully impaled his foot, so we took him to the doc for his first dtap injection. didn't do the followup ones tho lol we also considered getting his MMRs after the mumps visited our region. never actually got around to it though and hes perfectly fine

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : kmasonnz- I found the link through...

Wed, 23 Jun 2010 19:11:06 +0000

Author: Emmecat
Subject: 28691
Posted: 23�June�2010 at 7:11pm

kmasonnz- I found the link through the IMAC website ironically...it was most interesting to read that oral polio is still available as is seperate diptheria and hep etc. Just pertussis is not avial seperately (of course- the one vax I'd be interested in getting!) anyway, the link even had prices on it lol but assume thats for distribution to health centres etc.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Ditto Emmecat. I don't want...

Wed, 23 Jun 2010 18:50:04 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 23�June�2010 at 6:50pm

Ditto Emmecat. I don't want to go into the pros and cons of vaccinating again. Leave that for the threads for that. I keep myself up to date on the research in case I decide later on to vaccinate, but at this stage still very happy with what I have chosen.

Will have a look at the ESR website emmecat thats the bit that annoys me most - feeling compelled without being given the full picture and choices at our disposal!

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : This thread isn't about the...

Wed, 23 Jun 2010 18:25:03 +0000

Author: Emmecat
Subject: 28691
Posted: 23�June�2010 at 6:25pm

This thread isn't about the pros and cons of vaccinating. It's for non vaccinating parents on ohbaby to discuss their choices and any problems/ tips etc they encounter. Everyones entitled to thier opinion and fair play to those who make an informed decision either way; it's just nice for those of us in the 'minority' to be able to come somewhere and not feel judged though.

Soybasedmama- yeah I'm kind of thinking the same way as you. Open as always to reconsidering my decision, however I would also feel much more comfortable waiting till she's older.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : We are still happy with our decision...

Wed, 23 Jun 2010 18:16:37 +0000

Author: SBM
Subject: 28691
Posted: 23�June�2010 at 6:16pm

We are still happy with our decision Emmecat, though we are still open to beginning vaccinations after two years old as they do in Japan. I would have to be convinced into it though, by doing more research. I would rather have an unvaccinated child who I can then decide to vaccinate, than a child who is vaccinated that I wish I hadn't vaccinated!

It's true that he internet has a LOT of crap on it linda, but if you are researching reputable, references websites, then there really is no difference between reading it online and reading it in a book. In fact I know a lot of books that are full of crap!!

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : I have formula feed boys who have...

Wed, 23 Jun 2010 18:10:11 +0000

Author: linda
Subject: 28691
Posted: 23�June�2010 at 6:10pm

I have formula feed boys who have had there first illness at 15 months...and have been fully immunised so not sure about the 'stress' theory Kmasonnz.

I read the article in the paper the other day about the parents who decided not to give there baby vitamin K. They did there research on the internet and were happy with there decision, as they should be, but the baby died of a blood clotting problem and would not have died had it had the injection.

If you choose not to vaccinate then chances are because a majority of people living around you have vaccinated your children will be ok. Yah for the vaccinating parents.

Anyway, that is my thoughts on it and I don't really get into this topic but the vitamin K story really got me thinking, more from if that was me, how would I cope with my child's death where I based all my research on the internet. The internet.

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Twoboys- totally agree re the...

Wed, 23 Jun 2010 12:32:04 +0000

Author: Emmecat
Subject: 28691
Posted: 23�June�2010 at 12:32pm

Twoboys- totally agree re the supermarket food lol...maybe you should join me in my boycott of them?!

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Still happy, everytime I go an...

Wed, 23 Jun 2010 09:11:58 +0000

Author: cuppatea
Subject: 28691
Posted: 23�June�2010 at 9:11am

Still happy, everytime I go an revisit the research I just get more convinced we have done the right thing. I always knew that the MMR/autism thing was not proven and that the research was dubios so we didn't base our decision on it and plus we looked into all the jabs not just that one.
But I would like to just say they may have proven that guys research to be dodgy as but no one has proven that the MMR jab (or any jab) is not causing the massive increase in autism and until they do find the cause I will always wonder whether it is linked to vaccination in some way. That or I wonder if all the crap in our food is responsible, cos most of what you buy in the supermarket is just a huge scientic experiment

?? for non-vaccinating parents... : Happy as! Aston turned 1 the...

Wed, 23 Jun 2010 08:25:42 +0000

Author: ajmmum
Subject: 28691
Posted: 23�June�2010 at 8:25am

Happy as!

Aston turned 1 the other day. The doctors rang us up to see if everything was ok. Yes - everything is fine why's that? Well we just haven't seen you. No well he hasn't been sick. Not at all. Not even a sniffle. "Well aren't you lucky" hahaha something to do with my son's immune system not being stressed I think.

I expected a bit more flack after the bit of scandal following the MMR vax but my reasons for not vaccinating weren't based on a single lancet so that didnt change much for me!